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How do Chazal know that the descendants of a Mamzer may never marry into the general populace?



Parashat Vayakhel + Shekalim
Purim and Shushan PurimHow do we know that we have free will?Why can't an illegitimate child enter the temple?How can God be just in light of Deuteronomy 23:3?Can the descendants of a mamzer ever become full Jews?What is the source for the idea that a woman can marry any man?How do we know that a potential korban is not אֶתְנַן זוֹנָה וּמְחִיר כֶּלֶב?How does Judaism reconcile the prohibition against Moabites/Ammonites joining the congreration and their royal lineage?Maharal Diskin on Sefer DevarimSource that we don't know how God judges peopleWhy was David allowed to be king if his great grandmother was a Moabitess?












4















The passuk says (Devarim 23:3-4):




לֹא־יָבֹ֥א מַמְזֵ֖ר בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָ֥בֹא ל֖וֹ בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָֽה׃



A Mamzer may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation shall not come for him into the congregation of Hashem.




The Mishnah (Yevamos 78b) takes for granted that a Mamzer’s descendants may never enter into the Congregation:




מתני׳ ממזרין ונתינין אסורין ואיסורן איסור עולם אחד זכרים ואחד נקבות:



Mamzeirim and Nesinim are forbidden, and their prohibition is a prohibition for eternity, whether males or females.




The Gemara, as far as I can tell, does not justify this assertion.



What is the source for this? Perhaps the passuk means that even the tenth generation may not enter, but beyond the tenth generation is permitted? This might be justified by contrasting it to v. 4 regarding Moavites and Amonites:




לֹֽא־יָבֹ֧א עַמּוֹנִ֛י וּמוֹאָבִ֖י בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָבֹ֥א לָהֶ֛ם בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָ֖ה עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃



An Amonite and Moavite may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation may not come for them into the congregation of Hashem forever.




Unlike the passuk by Mamzeirim, the passuk by Moav and Amon clarifies that it’s forever. Perhaps this indicates by Mamzeirim that it’s only until the tenth generation, but beyond that would be permissible?



What is the Mishnah’s source for asserting that a Mamzer is forbidden even beyond the tenth generation?










share|improve this question

























  • @Yishai The Gemara in several places discusses a Gezeirah Shavah עשירי עשירי as well as a הקיש since they're right next to each other, but I have yet to see a place where they are applied in this particular circumstance. Wouldn't be surprised if a Rishon brings it as the source, though.

    – DonielF
    1 hour ago
















4















The passuk says (Devarim 23:3-4):




לֹא־יָבֹ֥א מַמְזֵ֖ר בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָ֥בֹא ל֖וֹ בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָֽה׃



A Mamzer may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation shall not come for him into the congregation of Hashem.




The Mishnah (Yevamos 78b) takes for granted that a Mamzer’s descendants may never enter into the Congregation:




מתני׳ ממזרין ונתינין אסורין ואיסורן איסור עולם אחד זכרים ואחד נקבות:



Mamzeirim and Nesinim are forbidden, and their prohibition is a prohibition for eternity, whether males or females.




The Gemara, as far as I can tell, does not justify this assertion.



What is the source for this? Perhaps the passuk means that even the tenth generation may not enter, but beyond the tenth generation is permitted? This might be justified by contrasting it to v. 4 regarding Moavites and Amonites:




לֹֽא־יָבֹ֧א עַמּוֹנִ֛י וּמוֹאָבִ֖י בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָבֹ֥א לָהֶ֛ם בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָ֖ה עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃



An Amonite and Moavite may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation may not come for them into the congregation of Hashem forever.




Unlike the passuk by Mamzeirim, the passuk by Moav and Amon clarifies that it’s forever. Perhaps this indicates by Mamzeirim that it’s only until the tenth generation, but beyond that would be permissible?



What is the Mishnah’s source for asserting that a Mamzer is forbidden even beyond the tenth generation?










share|improve this question

























  • @Yishai The Gemara in several places discusses a Gezeirah Shavah עשירי עשירי as well as a הקיש since they're right next to each other, but I have yet to see a place where they are applied in this particular circumstance. Wouldn't be surprised if a Rishon brings it as the source, though.

    – DonielF
    1 hour ago














4












4








4








The passuk says (Devarim 23:3-4):




לֹא־יָבֹ֥א מַמְזֵ֖ר בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָ֥בֹא ל֖וֹ בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָֽה׃



A Mamzer may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation shall not come for him into the congregation of Hashem.




The Mishnah (Yevamos 78b) takes for granted that a Mamzer’s descendants may never enter into the Congregation:




מתני׳ ממזרין ונתינין אסורין ואיסורן איסור עולם אחד זכרים ואחד נקבות:



Mamzeirim and Nesinim are forbidden, and their prohibition is a prohibition for eternity, whether males or females.




The Gemara, as far as I can tell, does not justify this assertion.



What is the source for this? Perhaps the passuk means that even the tenth generation may not enter, but beyond the tenth generation is permitted? This might be justified by contrasting it to v. 4 regarding Moavites and Amonites:




לֹֽא־יָבֹ֧א עַמּוֹנִ֛י וּמוֹאָבִ֖י בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָבֹ֥א לָהֶ֛ם בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָ֖ה עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃



An Amonite and Moavite may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation may not come for them into the congregation of Hashem forever.




Unlike the passuk by Mamzeirim, the passuk by Moav and Amon clarifies that it’s forever. Perhaps this indicates by Mamzeirim that it’s only until the tenth generation, but beyond that would be permissible?



What is the Mishnah’s source for asserting that a Mamzer is forbidden even beyond the tenth generation?










share|improve this question
















The passuk says (Devarim 23:3-4):




לֹא־יָבֹ֥א מַמְזֵ֖ר בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָ֥בֹא ל֖וֹ בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָֽה׃



A Mamzer may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation shall not come for him into the congregation of Hashem.




The Mishnah (Yevamos 78b) takes for granted that a Mamzer’s descendants may never enter into the Congregation:




מתני׳ ממזרין ונתינין אסורין ואיסורן איסור עולם אחד זכרים ואחד נקבות:



Mamzeirim and Nesinim are forbidden, and their prohibition is a prohibition for eternity, whether males or females.




The Gemara, as far as I can tell, does not justify this assertion.



What is the source for this? Perhaps the passuk means that even the tenth generation may not enter, but beyond the tenth generation is permitted? This might be justified by contrasting it to v. 4 regarding Moavites and Amonites:




לֹֽא־יָבֹ֧א עַמּוֹנִ֛י וּמוֹאָבִ֖י בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָבֹ֥א לָהֶ֛ם בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָ֖ה עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃



An Amonite and Moavite may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation may not come for them into the congregation of Hashem forever.




Unlike the passuk by Mamzeirim, the passuk by Moav and Amon clarifies that it’s forever. Perhaps this indicates by Mamzeirim that it’s only until the tenth generation, but beyond that would be permissible?



What is the Mishnah’s source for asserting that a Mamzer is forbidden even beyond the tenth generation?







sources-mekorot marriage ki-teitzei masechet-yevamot mamzer






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edited 1 hour ago







DonielF

















asked 2 hours ago









DonielFDonielF

14.1k12379




14.1k12379













  • @Yishai The Gemara in several places discusses a Gezeirah Shavah עשירי עשירי as well as a הקיש since they're right next to each other, but I have yet to see a place where they are applied in this particular circumstance. Wouldn't be surprised if a Rishon brings it as the source, though.

    – DonielF
    1 hour ago



















  • @Yishai The Gemara in several places discusses a Gezeirah Shavah עשירי עשירי as well as a הקיש since they're right next to each other, but I have yet to see a place where they are applied in this particular circumstance. Wouldn't be surprised if a Rishon brings it as the source, though.

    – DonielF
    1 hour ago

















@Yishai The Gemara in several places discusses a Gezeirah Shavah עשירי עשירי as well as a הקיש since they're right next to each other, but I have yet to see a place where they are applied in this particular circumstance. Wouldn't be surprised if a Rishon brings it as the source, though.

– DonielF
1 hour ago





@Yishai The Gemara in several places discusses a Gezeirah Shavah עשירי עשירי as well as a הקיש since they're right next to each other, but I have yet to see a place where they are applied in this particular circumstance. Wouldn't be surprised if a Rishon brings it as the source, though.

– DonielF
1 hour ago










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















4














Torah Temimah (text here) cites the Sifri here (my loose translation):




גם דור עשירי – נאמר כאן דור עשירי ונאמר להלן בעמוני ומואבי דור עשירי (פ׳ ד׳) מה דור עשירי דלהלן עד עולם אף דור עשירי שבכאן עד עולם




It says here "the tenth generation" and it says later "the tenth generation" (verse 4), just as "the tenth generation" later [may not marry in] forever, so too "the tenth generation" here [may not marry in] forever.



(Note that the following passage in Sifri understands this to be through the mechanism of Gezeirah Shavah.)



If so, asks the Torah Temimah, why doesn't it simply say "Ad Olam", "forever", here as well?





  1. He answers that this is to hint that there will be a time when Mamzerim will be "purified", as per Kiddushin 72b (Davidson Edition translation):




    ת"ר ממזירי ונתיני טהורים לעתיד לבא דברי ר' יוסי ר' מאיר אומר אין טהורים אמר לו ר' יוסי והלא כבר נאמר (יחזקאל לו, כה) וזרקתי עליכם מים טהורים וטהרתם אמר לו ר' מאיר כשהוא אומר מכל טומאותיכם ומכל גלוליכם ולא מן הממזרות אמר לו ר' יוסי כשהוא אומר אטהר אתכם הוי אומר אף מן הממזרות



    The Sages taught (Tosefta 5:5): Mamzerim and Gibeonites will be pure in the future; this is the statement of Rabbi Yosei. Rabbi Meir says: They will not be pure. Rabbi Yosei said to him: But hasn’t it already been stated: “And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you” (Ezekiel 36:25)? Rabbi Meir said to him: When it says: “From all your uncleanness, and from all your idols,” this emphasizes that God will purify people from these types of impurity, but not from mamzer status. Rabbi Yosei said to him: When it says: “Will I cleanse you,” at the end of the verse, you must say this means even from mamzer status.





Edit:




  1. I later saw that Hakesav Vehakabbalah here answers similarly, but also notes that according to some, Mamzerim can become "purified in other ways", see Kiddushin 69a.


  2. I saw that Rav Dovid Zvi Hoffman answers that it is harder for a mamzer to reproduce for 10 generations, since few people want to marry him. Therefore, since it is a less common case, the Torah doesn't mention it.





Also, note that Ralbag makes the comment here that from the fact that the Torah uses "Ad Olam" in the same context later, it is obvious that it applies here as well - we can learn one case from the other on logical grounds:




כבר נתבאר אחר זה שאין הרצון בזה הלשון שמהדור העשירי ואילך יהיה מותר לבא בקהל שהרי אמר כן בעמוני ומואבי וזכר שם שהוא אסור לבא בקהל עד עולם ולזה תהיה הכונה בזה המקום שעד עולם לא יבא ממזר בקהל י״י ואם אמר אומר כי מזה המקום יתבאר שאינו אסור מעשירי ואילך כיון שלא אמר עד עולם אמרנו כי התורה לא תאמר דברים סותרים זה את זה כל שכן שתאמר אותם עם זה ללא ענין ולזה הוא מבואר שאם היתה הכונה באמרה גם דור העשירי שמדור עשירי ואילך יבא בקהל הנה זה יהיה סותר מה שאמר אחריו עד עולם ועוד שלא היה צריך לזכור זה הסותר אבל יספיק כשיאמר לא יבוא עמוני ומואבי בקהל השם עד עולם.







share|improve this answer


























  • So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?

    – DonielF
    1 hour ago











  • He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF

    – רבות מחשבות
    44 mins ago













  • There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?

    – DonielF
    41 mins ago











  • see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF

    – רבות מחשבות
    40 mins ago








  • 2





    I think זהרי in the first line of the quote from Ralbag is a mistake. That is how it appears on alhatorah.org (where you pasted it from) but I would assume it's a typo for שהרי, as indeed appears in the Mossad Harav Kook edition.

    – Alex
    39 mins ago



















1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









4














Torah Temimah (text here) cites the Sifri here (my loose translation):




גם דור עשירי – נאמר כאן דור עשירי ונאמר להלן בעמוני ומואבי דור עשירי (פ׳ ד׳) מה דור עשירי דלהלן עד עולם אף דור עשירי שבכאן עד עולם




It says here "the tenth generation" and it says later "the tenth generation" (verse 4), just as "the tenth generation" later [may not marry in] forever, so too "the tenth generation" here [may not marry in] forever.



(Note that the following passage in Sifri understands this to be through the mechanism of Gezeirah Shavah.)



If so, asks the Torah Temimah, why doesn't it simply say "Ad Olam", "forever", here as well?





  1. He answers that this is to hint that there will be a time when Mamzerim will be "purified", as per Kiddushin 72b (Davidson Edition translation):




    ת"ר ממזירי ונתיני טהורים לעתיד לבא דברי ר' יוסי ר' מאיר אומר אין טהורים אמר לו ר' יוסי והלא כבר נאמר (יחזקאל לו, כה) וזרקתי עליכם מים טהורים וטהרתם אמר לו ר' מאיר כשהוא אומר מכל טומאותיכם ומכל גלוליכם ולא מן הממזרות אמר לו ר' יוסי כשהוא אומר אטהר אתכם הוי אומר אף מן הממזרות



    The Sages taught (Tosefta 5:5): Mamzerim and Gibeonites will be pure in the future; this is the statement of Rabbi Yosei. Rabbi Meir says: They will not be pure. Rabbi Yosei said to him: But hasn’t it already been stated: “And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you” (Ezekiel 36:25)? Rabbi Meir said to him: When it says: “From all your uncleanness, and from all your idols,” this emphasizes that God will purify people from these types of impurity, but not from mamzer status. Rabbi Yosei said to him: When it says: “Will I cleanse you,” at the end of the verse, you must say this means even from mamzer status.





Edit:




  1. I later saw that Hakesav Vehakabbalah here answers similarly, but also notes that according to some, Mamzerim can become "purified in other ways", see Kiddushin 69a.


  2. I saw that Rav Dovid Zvi Hoffman answers that it is harder for a mamzer to reproduce for 10 generations, since few people want to marry him. Therefore, since it is a less common case, the Torah doesn't mention it.





Also, note that Ralbag makes the comment here that from the fact that the Torah uses "Ad Olam" in the same context later, it is obvious that it applies here as well - we can learn one case from the other on logical grounds:




כבר נתבאר אחר זה שאין הרצון בזה הלשון שמהדור העשירי ואילך יהיה מותר לבא בקהל שהרי אמר כן בעמוני ומואבי וזכר שם שהוא אסור לבא בקהל עד עולם ולזה תהיה הכונה בזה המקום שעד עולם לא יבא ממזר בקהל י״י ואם אמר אומר כי מזה המקום יתבאר שאינו אסור מעשירי ואילך כיון שלא אמר עד עולם אמרנו כי התורה לא תאמר דברים סותרים זה את זה כל שכן שתאמר אותם עם זה ללא ענין ולזה הוא מבואר שאם היתה הכונה באמרה גם דור העשירי שמדור עשירי ואילך יבא בקהל הנה זה יהיה סותר מה שאמר אחריו עד עולם ועוד שלא היה צריך לזכור זה הסותר אבל יספיק כשיאמר לא יבוא עמוני ומואבי בקהל השם עד עולם.







share|improve this answer


























  • So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?

    – DonielF
    1 hour ago











  • He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF

    – רבות מחשבות
    44 mins ago













  • There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?

    – DonielF
    41 mins ago











  • see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF

    – רבות מחשבות
    40 mins ago








  • 2





    I think זהרי in the first line of the quote from Ralbag is a mistake. That is how it appears on alhatorah.org (where you pasted it from) but I would assume it's a typo for שהרי, as indeed appears in the Mossad Harav Kook edition.

    – Alex
    39 mins ago
















4














Torah Temimah (text here) cites the Sifri here (my loose translation):




גם דור עשירי – נאמר כאן דור עשירי ונאמר להלן בעמוני ומואבי דור עשירי (פ׳ ד׳) מה דור עשירי דלהלן עד עולם אף דור עשירי שבכאן עד עולם




It says here "the tenth generation" and it says later "the tenth generation" (verse 4), just as "the tenth generation" later [may not marry in] forever, so too "the tenth generation" here [may not marry in] forever.



(Note that the following passage in Sifri understands this to be through the mechanism of Gezeirah Shavah.)



If so, asks the Torah Temimah, why doesn't it simply say "Ad Olam", "forever", here as well?





  1. He answers that this is to hint that there will be a time when Mamzerim will be "purified", as per Kiddushin 72b (Davidson Edition translation):




    ת"ר ממזירי ונתיני טהורים לעתיד לבא דברי ר' יוסי ר' מאיר אומר אין טהורים אמר לו ר' יוסי והלא כבר נאמר (יחזקאל לו, כה) וזרקתי עליכם מים טהורים וטהרתם אמר לו ר' מאיר כשהוא אומר מכל טומאותיכם ומכל גלוליכם ולא מן הממזרות אמר לו ר' יוסי כשהוא אומר אטהר אתכם הוי אומר אף מן הממזרות



    The Sages taught (Tosefta 5:5): Mamzerim and Gibeonites will be pure in the future; this is the statement of Rabbi Yosei. Rabbi Meir says: They will not be pure. Rabbi Yosei said to him: But hasn’t it already been stated: “And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you” (Ezekiel 36:25)? Rabbi Meir said to him: When it says: “From all your uncleanness, and from all your idols,” this emphasizes that God will purify people from these types of impurity, but not from mamzer status. Rabbi Yosei said to him: When it says: “Will I cleanse you,” at the end of the verse, you must say this means even from mamzer status.





Edit:




  1. I later saw that Hakesav Vehakabbalah here answers similarly, but also notes that according to some, Mamzerim can become "purified in other ways", see Kiddushin 69a.


  2. I saw that Rav Dovid Zvi Hoffman answers that it is harder for a mamzer to reproduce for 10 generations, since few people want to marry him. Therefore, since it is a less common case, the Torah doesn't mention it.





Also, note that Ralbag makes the comment here that from the fact that the Torah uses "Ad Olam" in the same context later, it is obvious that it applies here as well - we can learn one case from the other on logical grounds:




כבר נתבאר אחר זה שאין הרצון בזה הלשון שמהדור העשירי ואילך יהיה מותר לבא בקהל שהרי אמר כן בעמוני ומואבי וזכר שם שהוא אסור לבא בקהל עד עולם ולזה תהיה הכונה בזה המקום שעד עולם לא יבא ממזר בקהל י״י ואם אמר אומר כי מזה המקום יתבאר שאינו אסור מעשירי ואילך כיון שלא אמר עד עולם אמרנו כי התורה לא תאמר דברים סותרים זה את זה כל שכן שתאמר אותם עם זה ללא ענין ולזה הוא מבואר שאם היתה הכונה באמרה גם דור העשירי שמדור עשירי ואילך יבא בקהל הנה זה יהיה סותר מה שאמר אחריו עד עולם ועוד שלא היה צריך לזכור זה הסותר אבל יספיק כשיאמר לא יבוא עמוני ומואבי בקהל השם עד עולם.







share|improve this answer


























  • So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?

    – DonielF
    1 hour ago











  • He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF

    – רבות מחשבות
    44 mins ago













  • There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?

    – DonielF
    41 mins ago











  • see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF

    – רבות מחשבות
    40 mins ago








  • 2





    I think זהרי in the first line of the quote from Ralbag is a mistake. That is how it appears on alhatorah.org (where you pasted it from) but I would assume it's a typo for שהרי, as indeed appears in the Mossad Harav Kook edition.

    – Alex
    39 mins ago














4












4








4







Torah Temimah (text here) cites the Sifri here (my loose translation):




גם דור עשירי – נאמר כאן דור עשירי ונאמר להלן בעמוני ומואבי דור עשירי (פ׳ ד׳) מה דור עשירי דלהלן עד עולם אף דור עשירי שבכאן עד עולם




It says here "the tenth generation" and it says later "the tenth generation" (verse 4), just as "the tenth generation" later [may not marry in] forever, so too "the tenth generation" here [may not marry in] forever.



(Note that the following passage in Sifri understands this to be through the mechanism of Gezeirah Shavah.)



If so, asks the Torah Temimah, why doesn't it simply say "Ad Olam", "forever", here as well?





  1. He answers that this is to hint that there will be a time when Mamzerim will be "purified", as per Kiddushin 72b (Davidson Edition translation):




    ת"ר ממזירי ונתיני טהורים לעתיד לבא דברי ר' יוסי ר' מאיר אומר אין טהורים אמר לו ר' יוסי והלא כבר נאמר (יחזקאל לו, כה) וזרקתי עליכם מים טהורים וטהרתם אמר לו ר' מאיר כשהוא אומר מכל טומאותיכם ומכל גלוליכם ולא מן הממזרות אמר לו ר' יוסי כשהוא אומר אטהר אתכם הוי אומר אף מן הממזרות



    The Sages taught (Tosefta 5:5): Mamzerim and Gibeonites will be pure in the future; this is the statement of Rabbi Yosei. Rabbi Meir says: They will not be pure. Rabbi Yosei said to him: But hasn’t it already been stated: “And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you” (Ezekiel 36:25)? Rabbi Meir said to him: When it says: “From all your uncleanness, and from all your idols,” this emphasizes that God will purify people from these types of impurity, but not from mamzer status. Rabbi Yosei said to him: When it says: “Will I cleanse you,” at the end of the verse, you must say this means even from mamzer status.





Edit:




  1. I later saw that Hakesav Vehakabbalah here answers similarly, but also notes that according to some, Mamzerim can become "purified in other ways", see Kiddushin 69a.


  2. I saw that Rav Dovid Zvi Hoffman answers that it is harder for a mamzer to reproduce for 10 generations, since few people want to marry him. Therefore, since it is a less common case, the Torah doesn't mention it.





Also, note that Ralbag makes the comment here that from the fact that the Torah uses "Ad Olam" in the same context later, it is obvious that it applies here as well - we can learn one case from the other on logical grounds:




כבר נתבאר אחר זה שאין הרצון בזה הלשון שמהדור העשירי ואילך יהיה מותר לבא בקהל שהרי אמר כן בעמוני ומואבי וזכר שם שהוא אסור לבא בקהל עד עולם ולזה תהיה הכונה בזה המקום שעד עולם לא יבא ממזר בקהל י״י ואם אמר אומר כי מזה המקום יתבאר שאינו אסור מעשירי ואילך כיון שלא אמר עד עולם אמרנו כי התורה לא תאמר דברים סותרים זה את זה כל שכן שתאמר אותם עם זה ללא ענין ולזה הוא מבואר שאם היתה הכונה באמרה גם דור העשירי שמדור עשירי ואילך יבא בקהל הנה זה יהיה סותר מה שאמר אחריו עד עולם ועוד שלא היה צריך לזכור זה הסותר אבל יספיק כשיאמר לא יבוא עמוני ומואבי בקהל השם עד עולם.







share|improve this answer















Torah Temimah (text here) cites the Sifri here (my loose translation):




גם דור עשירי – נאמר כאן דור עשירי ונאמר להלן בעמוני ומואבי דור עשירי (פ׳ ד׳) מה דור עשירי דלהלן עד עולם אף דור עשירי שבכאן עד עולם




It says here "the tenth generation" and it says later "the tenth generation" (verse 4), just as "the tenth generation" later [may not marry in] forever, so too "the tenth generation" here [may not marry in] forever.



(Note that the following passage in Sifri understands this to be through the mechanism of Gezeirah Shavah.)



If so, asks the Torah Temimah, why doesn't it simply say "Ad Olam", "forever", here as well?





  1. He answers that this is to hint that there will be a time when Mamzerim will be "purified", as per Kiddushin 72b (Davidson Edition translation):




    ת"ר ממזירי ונתיני טהורים לעתיד לבא דברי ר' יוסי ר' מאיר אומר אין טהורים אמר לו ר' יוסי והלא כבר נאמר (יחזקאל לו, כה) וזרקתי עליכם מים טהורים וטהרתם אמר לו ר' מאיר כשהוא אומר מכל טומאותיכם ומכל גלוליכם ולא מן הממזרות אמר לו ר' יוסי כשהוא אומר אטהר אתכם הוי אומר אף מן הממזרות



    The Sages taught (Tosefta 5:5): Mamzerim and Gibeonites will be pure in the future; this is the statement of Rabbi Yosei. Rabbi Meir says: They will not be pure. Rabbi Yosei said to him: But hasn’t it already been stated: “And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you” (Ezekiel 36:25)? Rabbi Meir said to him: When it says: “From all your uncleanness, and from all your idols,” this emphasizes that God will purify people from these types of impurity, but not from mamzer status. Rabbi Yosei said to him: When it says: “Will I cleanse you,” at the end of the verse, you must say this means even from mamzer status.





Edit:




  1. I later saw that Hakesav Vehakabbalah here answers similarly, but also notes that according to some, Mamzerim can become "purified in other ways", see Kiddushin 69a.


  2. I saw that Rav Dovid Zvi Hoffman answers that it is harder for a mamzer to reproduce for 10 generations, since few people want to marry him. Therefore, since it is a less common case, the Torah doesn't mention it.





Also, note that Ralbag makes the comment here that from the fact that the Torah uses "Ad Olam" in the same context later, it is obvious that it applies here as well - we can learn one case from the other on logical grounds:




כבר נתבאר אחר זה שאין הרצון בזה הלשון שמהדור העשירי ואילך יהיה מותר לבא בקהל שהרי אמר כן בעמוני ומואבי וזכר שם שהוא אסור לבא בקהל עד עולם ולזה תהיה הכונה בזה המקום שעד עולם לא יבא ממזר בקהל י״י ואם אמר אומר כי מזה המקום יתבאר שאינו אסור מעשירי ואילך כיון שלא אמר עד עולם אמרנו כי התורה לא תאמר דברים סותרים זה את זה כל שכן שתאמר אותם עם זה ללא ענין ולזה הוא מבואר שאם היתה הכונה באמרה גם דור העשירי שמדור עשירי ואילך יבא בקהל הנה זה יהיה סותר מה שאמר אחריו עד עולם ועוד שלא היה צריך לזכור זה הסותר אבל יספיק כשיאמר לא יבוא עמוני ומואבי בקהל השם עד עולם.








share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 27 mins ago

























answered 1 hour ago









רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות

13.8k125120




13.8k125120













  • So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?

    – DonielF
    1 hour ago











  • He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF

    – רבות מחשבות
    44 mins ago













  • There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?

    – DonielF
    41 mins ago











  • see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF

    – רבות מחשבות
    40 mins ago








  • 2





    I think זהרי in the first line of the quote from Ralbag is a mistake. That is how it appears on alhatorah.org (where you pasted it from) but I would assume it's a typo for שהרי, as indeed appears in the Mossad Harav Kook edition.

    – Alex
    39 mins ago



















  • So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?

    – DonielF
    1 hour ago











  • He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF

    – רבות מחשבות
    44 mins ago













  • There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?

    – DonielF
    41 mins ago











  • see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF

    – רבות מחשבות
    40 mins ago








  • 2





    I think זהרי in the first line of the quote from Ralbag is a mistake. That is how it appears on alhatorah.org (where you pasted it from) but I would assume it's a typo for שהרי, as indeed appears in the Mossad Harav Kook edition.

    – Alex
    39 mins ago

















So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?

– DonielF
1 hour ago





So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?

– DonielF
1 hour ago













He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF

– רבות מחשבות
44 mins ago







He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF

– רבות מחשבות
44 mins ago















There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?

– DonielF
41 mins ago





There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?

– DonielF
41 mins ago













see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF

– רבות מחשבות
40 mins ago







see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF

– רבות מחשבות
40 mins ago






2




2





I think זהרי in the first line of the quote from Ralbag is a mistake. That is how it appears on alhatorah.org (where you pasted it from) but I would assume it's a typo for שהרי, as indeed appears in the Mossad Harav Kook edition.

– Alex
39 mins ago





I think זהרי in the first line of the quote from Ralbag is a mistake. That is how it appears on alhatorah.org (where you pasted it from) but I would assume it's a typo for שהרי, as indeed appears in the Mossad Harav Kook edition.

– Alex
39 mins ago



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