How do Chazal know that the descendants of a Mamzer may never marry into the general populace?Parashat...
How to deal with an incendiary email that was recalled
Eww, those bytes are gross
What are "industrial chops"?
How can I get my players to come to the game session after agreeing to a date?
Does paint affect EMI of enclosure
Can you share a component pouch with another creature?
Why did other German political parties disband so fast when Hitler was appointed chancellor?
Pronunciation of umlaut vowels in the history of German
Writing a character who is going through a civilizing process without overdoing it?
Is it a fallacy if someone claims they need an explanation for every word of your argument to the point where they don't understand common terms?
Why is mind meld hard for T'pol in Star Trek: Enterprise?
MAC Address learning process
Do authors have to be politically correct in article-writing?
Advice for a new journal editor
How to prevent users from executing commands through browser URL
Intern applicant asking for compensation equivalent to that of permanent employee
Why do neural networks need so many training examples to perform?
If I delete my router's history can my ISP still provide it to my parents?
Why zero tolerance on nudity in space?
Why do stocks necessarily drop during a recession?
How to count the characters of jar files by wc
Find some digits of factorial 17
Caruana vs Carlsen game 10 (WCC) why not 18...Nxb6?
Incorporating research and background: How much is too much?
How do Chazal know that the descendants of a Mamzer may never marry into the general populace?
Parashat Vayakhel + ShekalimPurim and Shushan PurimHow do we know that we have free will?Why can't an illegitimate child enter the temple?How can God be just in light of Deuteronomy 23:3?Can the descendants of a mamzer ever become full Jews?What is the source for the idea that a woman can marry any man?How do we know that a potential korban is not אֶתְנַן זוֹנָה וּמְחִיר כֶּלֶב?How does Judaism reconcile the prohibition against Moabites/Ammonites joining the congreration and their royal lineage?Maharal Diskin on Sefer DevarimSource that we don't know how God judges peopleWhy was David allowed to be king if his great grandmother was a Moabitess?
The passuk says (Devarim 23:3-4):
לֹא־יָבֹ֥א מַמְזֵ֖ר בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָ֥בֹא ל֖וֹ בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָֽה׃
A Mamzer may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation shall not come for him into the congregation of Hashem.
The Mishnah (Yevamos 78b) takes for granted that a Mamzer’s descendants may never enter into the Congregation:
מתני׳ ממזרין ונתינין אסורין ואיסורן איסור עולם אחד זכרים ואחד נקבות:
Mamzeirim and Nesinim are forbidden, and their prohibition is a prohibition for eternity, whether males or females.
The Gemara, as far as I can tell, does not justify this assertion.
What is the source for this? Perhaps the passuk means that even the tenth generation may not enter, but beyond the tenth generation is permitted? This might be justified by contrasting it to v. 4 regarding Moavites and Amonites:
לֹֽא־יָבֹ֧א עַמּוֹנִ֛י וּמוֹאָבִ֖י בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָבֹ֥א לָהֶ֛ם בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָ֖ה עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃
An Amonite and Moavite may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation may not come for them into the congregation of Hashem forever.
Unlike the passuk by Mamzeirim, the passuk by Moav and Amon clarifies that it’s forever. Perhaps this indicates by Mamzeirim that it’s only until the tenth generation, but beyond that would be permissible?
What is the Mishnah’s source for asserting that a Mamzer is forbidden even beyond the tenth generation?
sources-mekorot marriage ki-teitzei masechet-yevamot mamzer
add a comment |
The passuk says (Devarim 23:3-4):
לֹא־יָבֹ֥א מַמְזֵ֖ר בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָ֥בֹא ל֖וֹ בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָֽה׃
A Mamzer may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation shall not come for him into the congregation of Hashem.
The Mishnah (Yevamos 78b) takes for granted that a Mamzer’s descendants may never enter into the Congregation:
מתני׳ ממזרין ונתינין אסורין ואיסורן איסור עולם אחד זכרים ואחד נקבות:
Mamzeirim and Nesinim are forbidden, and their prohibition is a prohibition for eternity, whether males or females.
The Gemara, as far as I can tell, does not justify this assertion.
What is the source for this? Perhaps the passuk means that even the tenth generation may not enter, but beyond the tenth generation is permitted? This might be justified by contrasting it to v. 4 regarding Moavites and Amonites:
לֹֽא־יָבֹ֧א עַמּוֹנִ֛י וּמוֹאָבִ֖י בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָבֹ֥א לָהֶ֛ם בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָ֖ה עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃
An Amonite and Moavite may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation may not come for them into the congregation of Hashem forever.
Unlike the passuk by Mamzeirim, the passuk by Moav and Amon clarifies that it’s forever. Perhaps this indicates by Mamzeirim that it’s only until the tenth generation, but beyond that would be permissible?
What is the Mishnah’s source for asserting that a Mamzer is forbidden even beyond the tenth generation?
sources-mekorot marriage ki-teitzei masechet-yevamot mamzer
@Yishai The Gemara in several places discusses a Gezeirah Shavah עשירי עשירי as well as a הקיש since they're right next to each other, but I have yet to see a place where they are applied in this particular circumstance. Wouldn't be surprised if a Rishon brings it as the source, though.
– DonielF
1 hour ago
add a comment |
The passuk says (Devarim 23:3-4):
לֹא־יָבֹ֥א מַמְזֵ֖ר בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָ֥בֹא ל֖וֹ בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָֽה׃
A Mamzer may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation shall not come for him into the congregation of Hashem.
The Mishnah (Yevamos 78b) takes for granted that a Mamzer’s descendants may never enter into the Congregation:
מתני׳ ממזרין ונתינין אסורין ואיסורן איסור עולם אחד זכרים ואחד נקבות:
Mamzeirim and Nesinim are forbidden, and their prohibition is a prohibition for eternity, whether males or females.
The Gemara, as far as I can tell, does not justify this assertion.
What is the source for this? Perhaps the passuk means that even the tenth generation may not enter, but beyond the tenth generation is permitted? This might be justified by contrasting it to v. 4 regarding Moavites and Amonites:
לֹֽא־יָבֹ֧א עַמּוֹנִ֛י וּמוֹאָבִ֖י בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָבֹ֥א לָהֶ֛ם בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָ֖ה עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃
An Amonite and Moavite may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation may not come for them into the congregation of Hashem forever.
Unlike the passuk by Mamzeirim, the passuk by Moav and Amon clarifies that it’s forever. Perhaps this indicates by Mamzeirim that it’s only until the tenth generation, but beyond that would be permissible?
What is the Mishnah’s source for asserting that a Mamzer is forbidden even beyond the tenth generation?
sources-mekorot marriage ki-teitzei masechet-yevamot mamzer
The passuk says (Devarim 23:3-4):
לֹא־יָבֹ֥א מַמְזֵ֖ר בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָ֥בֹא ל֖וֹ בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָֽה׃
A Mamzer may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation shall not come for him into the congregation of Hashem.
The Mishnah (Yevamos 78b) takes for granted that a Mamzer’s descendants may never enter into the Congregation:
מתני׳ ממזרין ונתינין אסורין ואיסורן איסור עולם אחד זכרים ואחד נקבות:
Mamzeirim and Nesinim are forbidden, and their prohibition is a prohibition for eternity, whether males or females.
The Gemara, as far as I can tell, does not justify this assertion.
What is the source for this? Perhaps the passuk means that even the tenth generation may not enter, but beyond the tenth generation is permitted? This might be justified by contrasting it to v. 4 regarding Moavites and Amonites:
לֹֽא־יָבֹ֧א עַמּוֹנִ֛י וּמוֹאָבִ֖י בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָבֹ֥א לָהֶ֛ם בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָ֖ה עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃
An Amonite and Moavite may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation may not come for them into the congregation of Hashem forever.
Unlike the passuk by Mamzeirim, the passuk by Moav and Amon clarifies that it’s forever. Perhaps this indicates by Mamzeirim that it’s only until the tenth generation, but beyond that would be permissible?
What is the Mishnah’s source for asserting that a Mamzer is forbidden even beyond the tenth generation?
sources-mekorot marriage ki-teitzei masechet-yevamot mamzer
sources-mekorot marriage ki-teitzei masechet-yevamot mamzer
edited 1 hour ago
DonielF
asked 2 hours ago
DonielFDonielF
14.1k12379
14.1k12379
@Yishai The Gemara in several places discusses a Gezeirah Shavah עשירי עשירי as well as a הקיש since they're right next to each other, but I have yet to see a place where they are applied in this particular circumstance. Wouldn't be surprised if a Rishon brings it as the source, though.
– DonielF
1 hour ago
add a comment |
@Yishai The Gemara in several places discusses a Gezeirah Shavah עשירי עשירי as well as a הקיש since they're right next to each other, but I have yet to see a place where they are applied in this particular circumstance. Wouldn't be surprised if a Rishon brings it as the source, though.
– DonielF
1 hour ago
@Yishai The Gemara in several places discusses a Gezeirah Shavah עשירי עשירי as well as a הקיש since they're right next to each other, but I have yet to see a place where they are applied in this particular circumstance. Wouldn't be surprised if a Rishon brings it as the source, though.
– DonielF
1 hour ago
@Yishai The Gemara in several places discusses a Gezeirah Shavah עשירי עשירי as well as a הקיש since they're right next to each other, but I have yet to see a place where they are applied in this particular circumstance. Wouldn't be surprised if a Rishon brings it as the source, though.
– DonielF
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
Torah Temimah (text here) cites the Sifri here (my loose translation):
גם דור עשירי – נאמר כאן דור עשירי ונאמר להלן בעמוני ומואבי דור עשירי (פ׳ ד׳) מה דור עשירי דלהלן עד עולם אף דור עשירי שבכאן עד עולם
It says here "the tenth generation" and it says later "the tenth generation" (verse 4), just as "the tenth generation" later [may not marry in] forever, so too "the tenth generation" here [may not marry in] forever.
(Note that the following passage in Sifri understands this to be through the mechanism of Gezeirah Shavah.)
If so, asks the Torah Temimah, why doesn't it simply say "Ad Olam", "forever", here as well?
He answers that this is to hint that there will be a time when Mamzerim will be "purified", as per Kiddushin 72b (Davidson Edition translation):
ת"ר ממזירי ונתיני טהורים לעתיד לבא דברי ר' יוסי ר' מאיר אומר אין טהורים אמר לו ר' יוסי והלא כבר נאמר (יחזקאל לו, כה) וזרקתי עליכם מים טהורים וטהרתם אמר לו ר' מאיר כשהוא אומר מכל טומאותיכם ומכל גלוליכם ולא מן הממזרות אמר לו ר' יוסי כשהוא אומר אטהר אתכם הוי אומר אף מן הממזרות
The Sages taught (Tosefta 5:5): Mamzerim and Gibeonites will be pure in the future; this is the statement of Rabbi Yosei. Rabbi Meir says: They will not be pure. Rabbi Yosei said to him: But hasn’t it already been stated: “And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you” (Ezekiel 36:25)? Rabbi Meir said to him: When it says: “From all your uncleanness, and from all your idols,” this emphasizes that God will purify people from these types of impurity, but not from mamzer status. Rabbi Yosei said to him: When it says: “Will I cleanse you,” at the end of the verse, you must say this means even from mamzer status.
Edit:
I later saw that Hakesav Vehakabbalah here answers similarly, but also notes that according to some, Mamzerim can become "purified in other ways", see Kiddushin 69a.
I saw that Rav Dovid Zvi Hoffman answers that it is harder for a mamzer to reproduce for 10 generations, since few people want to marry him. Therefore, since it is a less common case, the Torah doesn't mention it.
Also, note that Ralbag makes the comment here that from the fact that the Torah uses "Ad Olam" in the same context later, it is obvious that it applies here as well - we can learn one case from the other on logical grounds:
כבר נתבאר אחר זה שאין הרצון בזה הלשון שמהדור העשירי ואילך יהיה מותר לבא בקהל שהרי אמר כן בעמוני ומואבי וזכר שם שהוא אסור לבא בקהל עד עולם ולזה תהיה הכונה בזה המקום שעד עולם לא יבא ממזר בקהל י״י ואם אמר אומר כי מזה המקום יתבאר שאינו אסור מעשירי ואילך כיון שלא אמר עד עולם אמרנו כי התורה לא תאמר דברים סותרים זה את זה כל שכן שתאמר אותם עם זה ללא ענין ולזה הוא מבואר שאם היתה הכונה באמרה גם דור העשירי שמדור עשירי ואילך יבא בקהל הנה זה יהיה סותר מה שאמר אחריו עד עולם ועוד שלא היה צריך לזכור זה הסותר אבל יספיק כשיאמר לא יבוא עמוני ומואבי בקהל השם עד עולם.
So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?
– DonielF
1 hour ago
He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF
– רבות מחשבות
44 mins ago
There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?
– DonielF
41 mins ago
see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF
– רבות מחשבות
40 mins ago
2
I think זהרי in the first line of the quote from Ralbag is a mistake. That is how it appears on alhatorah.org (where you pasted it from) but I would assume it's a typo for שהרי, as indeed appears in the Mossad Harav Kook edition.
– Alex
39 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Torah Temimah (text here) cites the Sifri here (my loose translation):
גם דור עשירי – נאמר כאן דור עשירי ונאמר להלן בעמוני ומואבי דור עשירי (פ׳ ד׳) מה דור עשירי דלהלן עד עולם אף דור עשירי שבכאן עד עולם
It says here "the tenth generation" and it says later "the tenth generation" (verse 4), just as "the tenth generation" later [may not marry in] forever, so too "the tenth generation" here [may not marry in] forever.
(Note that the following passage in Sifri understands this to be through the mechanism of Gezeirah Shavah.)
If so, asks the Torah Temimah, why doesn't it simply say "Ad Olam", "forever", here as well?
He answers that this is to hint that there will be a time when Mamzerim will be "purified", as per Kiddushin 72b (Davidson Edition translation):
ת"ר ממזירי ונתיני טהורים לעתיד לבא דברי ר' יוסי ר' מאיר אומר אין טהורים אמר לו ר' יוסי והלא כבר נאמר (יחזקאל לו, כה) וזרקתי עליכם מים טהורים וטהרתם אמר לו ר' מאיר כשהוא אומר מכל טומאותיכם ומכל גלוליכם ולא מן הממזרות אמר לו ר' יוסי כשהוא אומר אטהר אתכם הוי אומר אף מן הממזרות
The Sages taught (Tosefta 5:5): Mamzerim and Gibeonites will be pure in the future; this is the statement of Rabbi Yosei. Rabbi Meir says: They will not be pure. Rabbi Yosei said to him: But hasn’t it already been stated: “And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you” (Ezekiel 36:25)? Rabbi Meir said to him: When it says: “From all your uncleanness, and from all your idols,” this emphasizes that God will purify people from these types of impurity, but not from mamzer status. Rabbi Yosei said to him: When it says: “Will I cleanse you,” at the end of the verse, you must say this means even from mamzer status.
Edit:
I later saw that Hakesav Vehakabbalah here answers similarly, but also notes that according to some, Mamzerim can become "purified in other ways", see Kiddushin 69a.
I saw that Rav Dovid Zvi Hoffman answers that it is harder for a mamzer to reproduce for 10 generations, since few people want to marry him. Therefore, since it is a less common case, the Torah doesn't mention it.
Also, note that Ralbag makes the comment here that from the fact that the Torah uses "Ad Olam" in the same context later, it is obvious that it applies here as well - we can learn one case from the other on logical grounds:
כבר נתבאר אחר זה שאין הרצון בזה הלשון שמהדור העשירי ואילך יהיה מותר לבא בקהל שהרי אמר כן בעמוני ומואבי וזכר שם שהוא אסור לבא בקהל עד עולם ולזה תהיה הכונה בזה המקום שעד עולם לא יבא ממזר בקהל י״י ואם אמר אומר כי מזה המקום יתבאר שאינו אסור מעשירי ואילך כיון שלא אמר עד עולם אמרנו כי התורה לא תאמר דברים סותרים זה את זה כל שכן שתאמר אותם עם זה ללא ענין ולזה הוא מבואר שאם היתה הכונה באמרה גם דור העשירי שמדור עשירי ואילך יבא בקהל הנה זה יהיה סותר מה שאמר אחריו עד עולם ועוד שלא היה צריך לזכור זה הסותר אבל יספיק כשיאמר לא יבוא עמוני ומואבי בקהל השם עד עולם.
So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?
– DonielF
1 hour ago
He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF
– רבות מחשבות
44 mins ago
There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?
– DonielF
41 mins ago
see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF
– רבות מחשבות
40 mins ago
2
I think זהרי in the first line of the quote from Ralbag is a mistake. That is how it appears on alhatorah.org (where you pasted it from) but I would assume it's a typo for שהרי, as indeed appears in the Mossad Harav Kook edition.
– Alex
39 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
Torah Temimah (text here) cites the Sifri here (my loose translation):
גם דור עשירי – נאמר כאן דור עשירי ונאמר להלן בעמוני ומואבי דור עשירי (פ׳ ד׳) מה דור עשירי דלהלן עד עולם אף דור עשירי שבכאן עד עולם
It says here "the tenth generation" and it says later "the tenth generation" (verse 4), just as "the tenth generation" later [may not marry in] forever, so too "the tenth generation" here [may not marry in] forever.
(Note that the following passage in Sifri understands this to be through the mechanism of Gezeirah Shavah.)
If so, asks the Torah Temimah, why doesn't it simply say "Ad Olam", "forever", here as well?
He answers that this is to hint that there will be a time when Mamzerim will be "purified", as per Kiddushin 72b (Davidson Edition translation):
ת"ר ממזירי ונתיני טהורים לעתיד לבא דברי ר' יוסי ר' מאיר אומר אין טהורים אמר לו ר' יוסי והלא כבר נאמר (יחזקאל לו, כה) וזרקתי עליכם מים טהורים וטהרתם אמר לו ר' מאיר כשהוא אומר מכל טומאותיכם ומכל גלוליכם ולא מן הממזרות אמר לו ר' יוסי כשהוא אומר אטהר אתכם הוי אומר אף מן הממזרות
The Sages taught (Tosefta 5:5): Mamzerim and Gibeonites will be pure in the future; this is the statement of Rabbi Yosei. Rabbi Meir says: They will not be pure. Rabbi Yosei said to him: But hasn’t it already been stated: “And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you” (Ezekiel 36:25)? Rabbi Meir said to him: When it says: “From all your uncleanness, and from all your idols,” this emphasizes that God will purify people from these types of impurity, but not from mamzer status. Rabbi Yosei said to him: When it says: “Will I cleanse you,” at the end of the verse, you must say this means even from mamzer status.
Edit:
I later saw that Hakesav Vehakabbalah here answers similarly, but also notes that according to some, Mamzerim can become "purified in other ways", see Kiddushin 69a.
I saw that Rav Dovid Zvi Hoffman answers that it is harder for a mamzer to reproduce for 10 generations, since few people want to marry him. Therefore, since it is a less common case, the Torah doesn't mention it.
Also, note that Ralbag makes the comment here that from the fact that the Torah uses "Ad Olam" in the same context later, it is obvious that it applies here as well - we can learn one case from the other on logical grounds:
כבר נתבאר אחר זה שאין הרצון בזה הלשון שמהדור העשירי ואילך יהיה מותר לבא בקהל שהרי אמר כן בעמוני ומואבי וזכר שם שהוא אסור לבא בקהל עד עולם ולזה תהיה הכונה בזה המקום שעד עולם לא יבא ממזר בקהל י״י ואם אמר אומר כי מזה המקום יתבאר שאינו אסור מעשירי ואילך כיון שלא אמר עד עולם אמרנו כי התורה לא תאמר דברים סותרים זה את זה כל שכן שתאמר אותם עם זה ללא ענין ולזה הוא מבואר שאם היתה הכונה באמרה גם דור העשירי שמדור עשירי ואילך יבא בקהל הנה זה יהיה סותר מה שאמר אחריו עד עולם ועוד שלא היה צריך לזכור זה הסותר אבל יספיק כשיאמר לא יבוא עמוני ומואבי בקהל השם עד עולם.
So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?
– DonielF
1 hour ago
He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF
– רבות מחשבות
44 mins ago
There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?
– DonielF
41 mins ago
see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF
– רבות מחשבות
40 mins ago
2
I think זהרי in the first line of the quote from Ralbag is a mistake. That is how it appears on alhatorah.org (where you pasted it from) but I would assume it's a typo for שהרי, as indeed appears in the Mossad Harav Kook edition.
– Alex
39 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
Torah Temimah (text here) cites the Sifri here (my loose translation):
גם דור עשירי – נאמר כאן דור עשירי ונאמר להלן בעמוני ומואבי דור עשירי (פ׳ ד׳) מה דור עשירי דלהלן עד עולם אף דור עשירי שבכאן עד עולם
It says here "the tenth generation" and it says later "the tenth generation" (verse 4), just as "the tenth generation" later [may not marry in] forever, so too "the tenth generation" here [may not marry in] forever.
(Note that the following passage in Sifri understands this to be through the mechanism of Gezeirah Shavah.)
If so, asks the Torah Temimah, why doesn't it simply say "Ad Olam", "forever", here as well?
He answers that this is to hint that there will be a time when Mamzerim will be "purified", as per Kiddushin 72b (Davidson Edition translation):
ת"ר ממזירי ונתיני טהורים לעתיד לבא דברי ר' יוסי ר' מאיר אומר אין טהורים אמר לו ר' יוסי והלא כבר נאמר (יחזקאל לו, כה) וזרקתי עליכם מים טהורים וטהרתם אמר לו ר' מאיר כשהוא אומר מכל טומאותיכם ומכל גלוליכם ולא מן הממזרות אמר לו ר' יוסי כשהוא אומר אטהר אתכם הוי אומר אף מן הממזרות
The Sages taught (Tosefta 5:5): Mamzerim and Gibeonites will be pure in the future; this is the statement of Rabbi Yosei. Rabbi Meir says: They will not be pure. Rabbi Yosei said to him: But hasn’t it already been stated: “And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you” (Ezekiel 36:25)? Rabbi Meir said to him: When it says: “From all your uncleanness, and from all your idols,” this emphasizes that God will purify people from these types of impurity, but not from mamzer status. Rabbi Yosei said to him: When it says: “Will I cleanse you,” at the end of the verse, you must say this means even from mamzer status.
Edit:
I later saw that Hakesav Vehakabbalah here answers similarly, but also notes that according to some, Mamzerim can become "purified in other ways", see Kiddushin 69a.
I saw that Rav Dovid Zvi Hoffman answers that it is harder for a mamzer to reproduce for 10 generations, since few people want to marry him. Therefore, since it is a less common case, the Torah doesn't mention it.
Also, note that Ralbag makes the comment here that from the fact that the Torah uses "Ad Olam" in the same context later, it is obvious that it applies here as well - we can learn one case from the other on logical grounds:
כבר נתבאר אחר זה שאין הרצון בזה הלשון שמהדור העשירי ואילך יהיה מותר לבא בקהל שהרי אמר כן בעמוני ומואבי וזכר שם שהוא אסור לבא בקהל עד עולם ולזה תהיה הכונה בזה המקום שעד עולם לא יבא ממזר בקהל י״י ואם אמר אומר כי מזה המקום יתבאר שאינו אסור מעשירי ואילך כיון שלא אמר עד עולם אמרנו כי התורה לא תאמר דברים סותרים זה את זה כל שכן שתאמר אותם עם זה ללא ענין ולזה הוא מבואר שאם היתה הכונה באמרה גם דור העשירי שמדור עשירי ואילך יבא בקהל הנה זה יהיה סותר מה שאמר אחריו עד עולם ועוד שלא היה צריך לזכור זה הסותר אבל יספיק כשיאמר לא יבוא עמוני ומואבי בקהל השם עד עולם.
Torah Temimah (text here) cites the Sifri here (my loose translation):
גם דור עשירי – נאמר כאן דור עשירי ונאמר להלן בעמוני ומואבי דור עשירי (פ׳ ד׳) מה דור עשירי דלהלן עד עולם אף דור עשירי שבכאן עד עולם
It says here "the tenth generation" and it says later "the tenth generation" (verse 4), just as "the tenth generation" later [may not marry in] forever, so too "the tenth generation" here [may not marry in] forever.
(Note that the following passage in Sifri understands this to be through the mechanism of Gezeirah Shavah.)
If so, asks the Torah Temimah, why doesn't it simply say "Ad Olam", "forever", here as well?
He answers that this is to hint that there will be a time when Mamzerim will be "purified", as per Kiddushin 72b (Davidson Edition translation):
ת"ר ממזירי ונתיני טהורים לעתיד לבא דברי ר' יוסי ר' מאיר אומר אין טהורים אמר לו ר' יוסי והלא כבר נאמר (יחזקאל לו, כה) וזרקתי עליכם מים טהורים וטהרתם אמר לו ר' מאיר כשהוא אומר מכל טומאותיכם ומכל גלוליכם ולא מן הממזרות אמר לו ר' יוסי כשהוא אומר אטהר אתכם הוי אומר אף מן הממזרות
The Sages taught (Tosefta 5:5): Mamzerim and Gibeonites will be pure in the future; this is the statement of Rabbi Yosei. Rabbi Meir says: They will not be pure. Rabbi Yosei said to him: But hasn’t it already been stated: “And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you” (Ezekiel 36:25)? Rabbi Meir said to him: When it says: “From all your uncleanness, and from all your idols,” this emphasizes that God will purify people from these types of impurity, but not from mamzer status. Rabbi Yosei said to him: When it says: “Will I cleanse you,” at the end of the verse, you must say this means even from mamzer status.
Edit:
I later saw that Hakesav Vehakabbalah here answers similarly, but also notes that according to some, Mamzerim can become "purified in other ways", see Kiddushin 69a.
I saw that Rav Dovid Zvi Hoffman answers that it is harder for a mamzer to reproduce for 10 generations, since few people want to marry him. Therefore, since it is a less common case, the Torah doesn't mention it.
Also, note that Ralbag makes the comment here that from the fact that the Torah uses "Ad Olam" in the same context later, it is obvious that it applies here as well - we can learn one case from the other on logical grounds:
כבר נתבאר אחר זה שאין הרצון בזה הלשון שמהדור העשירי ואילך יהיה מותר לבא בקהל שהרי אמר כן בעמוני ומואבי וזכר שם שהוא אסור לבא בקהל עד עולם ולזה תהיה הכונה בזה המקום שעד עולם לא יבא ממזר בקהל י״י ואם אמר אומר כי מזה המקום יתבאר שאינו אסור מעשירי ואילך כיון שלא אמר עד עולם אמרנו כי התורה לא תאמר דברים סותרים זה את זה כל שכן שתאמר אותם עם זה ללא ענין ולזה הוא מבואר שאם היתה הכונה באמרה גם דור העשירי שמדור עשירי ואילך יבא בקהל הנה זה יהיה סותר מה שאמר אחריו עד עולם ועוד שלא היה צריך לזכור זה הסותר אבל יספיק כשיאמר לא יבוא עמוני ומואבי בקהל השם עד עולם.
edited 27 mins ago
answered 1 hour ago
רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות
13.8k125120
13.8k125120
So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?
– DonielF
1 hour ago
He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF
– רבות מחשבות
44 mins ago
There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?
– DonielF
41 mins ago
see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF
– רבות מחשבות
40 mins ago
2
I think זהרי in the first line of the quote from Ralbag is a mistake. That is how it appears on alhatorah.org (where you pasted it from) but I would assume it's a typo for שהרי, as indeed appears in the Mossad Harav Kook edition.
– Alex
39 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?
– DonielF
1 hour ago
He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF
– רבות מחשבות
44 mins ago
There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?
– DonielF
41 mins ago
see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF
– רבות מחשבות
40 mins ago
2
I think זהרי in the first line of the quote from Ralbag is a mistake. That is how it appears on alhatorah.org (where you pasted it from) but I would assume it's a typo for שהרי, as indeed appears in the Mossad Harav Kook edition.
– Alex
39 mins ago
So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?
– DonielF
1 hour ago
So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?
– DonielF
1 hour ago
He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF
– רבות מחשבות
44 mins ago
He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF
– רבות מחשבות
44 mins ago
There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?
– DonielF
41 mins ago
There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?
– DonielF
41 mins ago
see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF
– רבות מחשבות
40 mins ago
see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF
– רבות מחשבות
40 mins ago
2
2
I think זהרי in the first line of the quote from Ralbag is a mistake. That is how it appears on alhatorah.org (where you pasted it from) but I would assume it's a typo for שהרי, as indeed appears in the Mossad Harav Kook edition.
– Alex
39 mins ago
I think זהרי in the first line of the quote from Ralbag is a mistake. That is how it appears on alhatorah.org (where you pasted it from) but I would assume it's a typo for שהרי, as indeed appears in the Mossad Harav Kook edition.
– Alex
39 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
@Yishai The Gemara in several places discusses a Gezeirah Shavah עשירי עשירי as well as a הקיש since they're right next to each other, but I have yet to see a place where they are applied in this particular circumstance. Wouldn't be surprised if a Rishon brings it as the source, though.
– DonielF
1 hour ago