Does the set of sets which are elements of every set exist? Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another...
Do I need to protect SFP ports and optics from dust/contaminants? If so, how?
What's the difference between using dependency injection with a container and using a service locator?
What *exactly* is electrical current, voltage, and resistance?
SQL Query not selecting all points that it should?
AI positioning circles within an arc at equal distances and heights
How can I make a line end at the edge of an irregular shape?
Expansion//Explosion and Siren Stormtamer
The art of proof summarizing. Are there known rules, or is it a purely common sense matter?
How to keep bees out of canned beverages?
How to not starve gigantic beasts
How would I use different systems of magic when they are capable of the same effects?
Could moose/elk survive in the Amazon forest?
Raising a bilingual kid. When should we introduce the majority language?
Who is Alexandra K. Trenfor? Did she say the quote?
Additive group of local rings
Are these square matrices always diagonalisable?
How would this chord from "Rocket Man" be analyzed?
Married in secret, can marital status in passport be changed at a later date?
Book with legacy programming code on a space ship that the main character hacks to escape
Is accepting an invalid credit card number a security issue?
Do you need a weapon for Thunderous Smite, and the other 'Smite' spells?
Why is this method for solving linear equations systems using determinants works?
What if Force was not Mass times Acceleration?
Can you stand up from being prone using Skirmisher outside of your turn?
Does the set of sets which are elements of every set exist?
Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar ManaraThe existence of the empty set is an axiom of ZFC or not?axiom of foundation of Zermelo–Fraenkel set theoryZF: Regularity axiom or axiom schema?There is no infinite sequence $x_1 ni x_2 ni x_3 ni …$Did Cohen need regularity?Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory and Hilbert's axioms for geometryTwo sets which contain each other as elementsHow does the axiom of regularity make sense?Axiom of regularity definitionSets that contain themselves in ZFC
$begingroup$
In Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, does the following set exist?
$$
A = { x mid forall y (x in y) }
$$
I can see why a set contained in every set cannot exist (it would break the Axiom of Foundation/Regularity) but then would $A$ be empty or not exist at all? I am aware of the fact that:
$$
B = { x mid forall y (y in x) } = emptyset
$$
with the universal set not existing in ZF set theory. Is then $A$ empty for the same reason?
set-theory axioms
New contributor
Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, does the following set exist?
$$
A = { x mid forall y (x in y) }
$$
I can see why a set contained in every set cannot exist (it would break the Axiom of Foundation/Regularity) but then would $A$ be empty or not exist at all? I am aware of the fact that:
$$
B = { x mid forall y (y in x) } = emptyset
$$
with the universal set not existing in ZF set theory. Is then $A$ empty for the same reason?
set-theory axioms
New contributor
Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, does the following set exist?
$$
A = { x mid forall y (x in y) }
$$
I can see why a set contained in every set cannot exist (it would break the Axiom of Foundation/Regularity) but then would $A$ be empty or not exist at all? I am aware of the fact that:
$$
B = { x mid forall y (y in x) } = emptyset
$$
with the universal set not existing in ZF set theory. Is then $A$ empty for the same reason?
set-theory axioms
New contributor
Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
In Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, does the following set exist?
$$
A = { x mid forall y (x in y) }
$$
I can see why a set contained in every set cannot exist (it would break the Axiom of Foundation/Regularity) but then would $A$ be empty or not exist at all? I am aware of the fact that:
$$
B = { x mid forall y (y in x) } = emptyset
$$
with the universal set not existing in ZF set theory. Is then $A$ empty for the same reason?
set-theory axioms
set-theory axioms
New contributor
Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 5 hours ago
Jacob Arbib
New contributor
Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 5 hours ago
Jacob ArbibJacob Arbib
285
285
New contributor
Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Yes, $A$ is just the emptyset.
We don't even need to appeal to Foundation to show this: all we need is that the emptyset exists. To be in $A$, you would have to be in every set, so in particular you would have to be in the emptyset - but that's clearly impossible.
Similarly, $B$ is just the emptyset (at least, in ZFC): to be in $B$ is to be a universal set, and (in ZFC) there aren't any of those.
Note that this is a little more finicky than the analysis of $A$: there are set theories which do have a universal set, such as NF, and in such theories the class $B$ is not empty. In all the set theories I know, however, the class $B$ is a set (whether empty or not): in particular, as long as we have $(i)$ Extensionality, $(ii)$ Emptyset, and $(iii)$ Singletons, we're good (if there are no universal sets then $B$ is the empty class, which is a set by $(ii)$;
if there is at least one universal set, then there is exactly one universal set by $(i)$ since any two universal sets have the same elements, and so $B$ is the class containing just that universal set, which is a set by $(iii)$), and these are fairly un-controversial axioms.
(OK fine there are some interesting set theories without Extensionality; but still, in all the natural examples I'm aware of $B$ is a set.)
Really, there's a slight abuse going on here: a priori $A$ and $B$ are just classes. What's really going on is that I have the formulas $$alpha(x)equiv forall y(xin y)quadmbox{and}quad beta(x)equivforall y(yin x)$$ defining the classes $A$ and $B$ respectively; I prove in ZFC that "each class is empty," that is, that $$forall x(negalpha(x))quadmbox{and}quadforall x(negbeta(x)).$$
This now lets me prove "There is a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff alpha(x)$" - namely, take $U=emptyset$ - and similarly for $beta$. This is the "under-the-hood" version of proving that an expression in set-builder notation actually defines a set: we show that there is a set which is co-extensive with the defining formula of the class. In my opinion, this is an example of a situation where set-builder notation being used at the beginning makes things harder to follow: really, we should be asking (in the case of $A$) "Is there a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff forall y(xin y)$?" which clearly separates formulas/classes and sets.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "69"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: true,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: 10,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
Jacob Arbib is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3200692%2fdoes-the-set-of-sets-which-are-elements-of-every-set-exist%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Yes, $A$ is just the emptyset.
We don't even need to appeal to Foundation to show this: all we need is that the emptyset exists. To be in $A$, you would have to be in every set, so in particular you would have to be in the emptyset - but that's clearly impossible.
Similarly, $B$ is just the emptyset (at least, in ZFC): to be in $B$ is to be a universal set, and (in ZFC) there aren't any of those.
Note that this is a little more finicky than the analysis of $A$: there are set theories which do have a universal set, such as NF, and in such theories the class $B$ is not empty. In all the set theories I know, however, the class $B$ is a set (whether empty or not): in particular, as long as we have $(i)$ Extensionality, $(ii)$ Emptyset, and $(iii)$ Singletons, we're good (if there are no universal sets then $B$ is the empty class, which is a set by $(ii)$;
if there is at least one universal set, then there is exactly one universal set by $(i)$ since any two universal sets have the same elements, and so $B$ is the class containing just that universal set, which is a set by $(iii)$), and these are fairly un-controversial axioms.
(OK fine there are some interesting set theories without Extensionality; but still, in all the natural examples I'm aware of $B$ is a set.)
Really, there's a slight abuse going on here: a priori $A$ and $B$ are just classes. What's really going on is that I have the formulas $$alpha(x)equiv forall y(xin y)quadmbox{and}quad beta(x)equivforall y(yin x)$$ defining the classes $A$ and $B$ respectively; I prove in ZFC that "each class is empty," that is, that $$forall x(negalpha(x))quadmbox{and}quadforall x(negbeta(x)).$$
This now lets me prove "There is a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff alpha(x)$" - namely, take $U=emptyset$ - and similarly for $beta$. This is the "under-the-hood" version of proving that an expression in set-builder notation actually defines a set: we show that there is a set which is co-extensive with the defining formula of the class. In my opinion, this is an example of a situation where set-builder notation being used at the beginning makes things harder to follow: really, we should be asking (in the case of $A$) "Is there a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff forall y(xin y)$?" which clearly separates formulas/classes and sets.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes, $A$ is just the emptyset.
We don't even need to appeal to Foundation to show this: all we need is that the emptyset exists. To be in $A$, you would have to be in every set, so in particular you would have to be in the emptyset - but that's clearly impossible.
Similarly, $B$ is just the emptyset (at least, in ZFC): to be in $B$ is to be a universal set, and (in ZFC) there aren't any of those.
Note that this is a little more finicky than the analysis of $A$: there are set theories which do have a universal set, such as NF, and in such theories the class $B$ is not empty. In all the set theories I know, however, the class $B$ is a set (whether empty or not): in particular, as long as we have $(i)$ Extensionality, $(ii)$ Emptyset, and $(iii)$ Singletons, we're good (if there are no universal sets then $B$ is the empty class, which is a set by $(ii)$;
if there is at least one universal set, then there is exactly one universal set by $(i)$ since any two universal sets have the same elements, and so $B$ is the class containing just that universal set, which is a set by $(iii)$), and these are fairly un-controversial axioms.
(OK fine there are some interesting set theories without Extensionality; but still, in all the natural examples I'm aware of $B$ is a set.)
Really, there's a slight abuse going on here: a priori $A$ and $B$ are just classes. What's really going on is that I have the formulas $$alpha(x)equiv forall y(xin y)quadmbox{and}quad beta(x)equivforall y(yin x)$$ defining the classes $A$ and $B$ respectively; I prove in ZFC that "each class is empty," that is, that $$forall x(negalpha(x))quadmbox{and}quadforall x(negbeta(x)).$$
This now lets me prove "There is a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff alpha(x)$" - namely, take $U=emptyset$ - and similarly for $beta$. This is the "under-the-hood" version of proving that an expression in set-builder notation actually defines a set: we show that there is a set which is co-extensive with the defining formula of the class. In my opinion, this is an example of a situation where set-builder notation being used at the beginning makes things harder to follow: really, we should be asking (in the case of $A$) "Is there a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff forall y(xin y)$?" which clearly separates formulas/classes and sets.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes, $A$ is just the emptyset.
We don't even need to appeal to Foundation to show this: all we need is that the emptyset exists. To be in $A$, you would have to be in every set, so in particular you would have to be in the emptyset - but that's clearly impossible.
Similarly, $B$ is just the emptyset (at least, in ZFC): to be in $B$ is to be a universal set, and (in ZFC) there aren't any of those.
Note that this is a little more finicky than the analysis of $A$: there are set theories which do have a universal set, such as NF, and in such theories the class $B$ is not empty. In all the set theories I know, however, the class $B$ is a set (whether empty or not): in particular, as long as we have $(i)$ Extensionality, $(ii)$ Emptyset, and $(iii)$ Singletons, we're good (if there are no universal sets then $B$ is the empty class, which is a set by $(ii)$;
if there is at least one universal set, then there is exactly one universal set by $(i)$ since any two universal sets have the same elements, and so $B$ is the class containing just that universal set, which is a set by $(iii)$), and these are fairly un-controversial axioms.
(OK fine there are some interesting set theories without Extensionality; but still, in all the natural examples I'm aware of $B$ is a set.)
Really, there's a slight abuse going on here: a priori $A$ and $B$ are just classes. What's really going on is that I have the formulas $$alpha(x)equiv forall y(xin y)quadmbox{and}quad beta(x)equivforall y(yin x)$$ defining the classes $A$ and $B$ respectively; I prove in ZFC that "each class is empty," that is, that $$forall x(negalpha(x))quadmbox{and}quadforall x(negbeta(x)).$$
This now lets me prove "There is a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff alpha(x)$" - namely, take $U=emptyset$ - and similarly for $beta$. This is the "under-the-hood" version of proving that an expression in set-builder notation actually defines a set: we show that there is a set which is co-extensive with the defining formula of the class. In my opinion, this is an example of a situation where set-builder notation being used at the beginning makes things harder to follow: really, we should be asking (in the case of $A$) "Is there a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff forall y(xin y)$?" which clearly separates formulas/classes and sets.
$endgroup$
Yes, $A$ is just the emptyset.
We don't even need to appeal to Foundation to show this: all we need is that the emptyset exists. To be in $A$, you would have to be in every set, so in particular you would have to be in the emptyset - but that's clearly impossible.
Similarly, $B$ is just the emptyset (at least, in ZFC): to be in $B$ is to be a universal set, and (in ZFC) there aren't any of those.
Note that this is a little more finicky than the analysis of $A$: there are set theories which do have a universal set, such as NF, and in such theories the class $B$ is not empty. In all the set theories I know, however, the class $B$ is a set (whether empty or not): in particular, as long as we have $(i)$ Extensionality, $(ii)$ Emptyset, and $(iii)$ Singletons, we're good (if there are no universal sets then $B$ is the empty class, which is a set by $(ii)$;
if there is at least one universal set, then there is exactly one universal set by $(i)$ since any two universal sets have the same elements, and so $B$ is the class containing just that universal set, which is a set by $(iii)$), and these are fairly un-controversial axioms.
(OK fine there are some interesting set theories without Extensionality; but still, in all the natural examples I'm aware of $B$ is a set.)
Really, there's a slight abuse going on here: a priori $A$ and $B$ are just classes. What's really going on is that I have the formulas $$alpha(x)equiv forall y(xin y)quadmbox{and}quad beta(x)equivforall y(yin x)$$ defining the classes $A$ and $B$ respectively; I prove in ZFC that "each class is empty," that is, that $$forall x(negalpha(x))quadmbox{and}quadforall x(negbeta(x)).$$
This now lets me prove "There is a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff alpha(x)$" - namely, take $U=emptyset$ - and similarly for $beta$. This is the "under-the-hood" version of proving that an expression in set-builder notation actually defines a set: we show that there is a set which is co-extensive with the defining formula of the class. In my opinion, this is an example of a situation where set-builder notation being used at the beginning makes things harder to follow: really, we should be asking (in the case of $A$) "Is there a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff forall y(xin y)$?" which clearly separates formulas/classes and sets.
edited 4 hours ago
answered 5 hours ago
Noah SchweberNoah Schweber
129k10154295
129k10154295
add a comment |
add a comment |
Jacob Arbib is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Jacob Arbib is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Jacob Arbib is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Jacob Arbib is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3200692%2fdoes-the-set-of-sets-which-are-elements-of-every-set-exist%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown