What language shall they sing in?How to master literary American English as a second language?How to deal...

A fantasy book with seven white haired women on the cover

I have trouble understanding this fallacy: "If A, then B. Therefore if not-B, then not-A."

Calculate of total length of edges in Voronoi diagram

The No-Straight Maze

How to politely refuse in-office gym instructor for steroids and protein

How vim overwrites readonly mode?

A Missing Symbol for This Logo

Has any human ever had the choice to leave Earth permanently?

What makes papers publishable in top-tier journals?

Memory usage: #define vs. static const for uint8_t

Why does 0.-5 evaluate to -5?

Am I correct in stating that the study of topology is purely theoretical?

In harmony: key or the flow?

Coworker asking me to not bring cakes due to self control issue. What should I do?

Methods for writing a code review

Taking headphones when quitting job

Is there a verb that means to inject with poison?

Why did Luke use his left hand to shoot?

Current across a wire with zero potential difference

Does the US government have any planning in place to ensure there's no shortages of food, fuel, steel and other commodities?

What game did these black and yellow dice come from?

When obtaining gender reassignment/plastic surgery overseas, is an emergency travel document required to return home?

Translation needed for 130 years old church document

Can the "Friends" spell be used without making the target hostile?



What language shall they sing in?


How to master literary American English as a second language?How to deal with a story that 95% of it takes place in a different language country and the protagonist speaks in it?Scenes with different languages spoken after translationCredibility of using English in non-English-speaking worldsIs there any financial advantage to translating my book myself?A comprehensive foreign-language source citation questionHow do I translate into a gendered language where the gender would be a spoiler?Foreign language dialogue in Middle Grade fictionBritish / American language mishmashHow to get my characters' emotions out of the way so I can get on with the plot?













6















I'm writing a middle-grade novel in English. I have time-traveling kids from 1995 America who go to Ancient Egypt to join the Exodus. None of the kids speak anything but English (aside from a few words). The people they visit mostly speak Canaanite, an ancient form of Hebrew. (There are other languages there but let's put that aside.)



My big it's a fantasy book for kids for crying out loud handwave is that there is a magical invisible Universal Translator (think Doctor Who, but without any tech). To the kids, everyone's speaking English (though they know this isn't the case). To the locals, the kids speak and understand them just fine (though they might not know all the vocabulary). In reality, everyone's speaking the local language(s), languages the kids retain when they go home.



The locals are folks that love to sing and dance and I plan to put snippets of songs into the book. For some or most of them, I'll just use English. But a few of the songs will come from Jewish liturgy or straight out of the Torah. Or both, like in the case of Mi Chamocha (aka The Song of the Sea), a song of praise that the Hebrews sang after successfully crossing the Red Sea. The lyrics are right in the book of Exodus and it's a song we sing every week in synagogue.



I'd like those songs to be in Hebrew. I may also put in a few non-English words or phrases here and there. There are also some English words the locals will learn as they're non-translatable ("dude!").



I'll write it so that the readers don't have to run for a dictionary. Plenty of translations, etc. But this is a song that every synagogue-attending Jew (and every kid in Hebrew school) will recognize. Some of the words (just the main stanza) need to be from the original. (Note: while all my kids are at least part Jewish, none of them have attended synagogue and they don't know the songs.)



I will use transliteration only and it will be in Biblical Hebrew, which is not the same as modern Hebrew (though they're more or less mutually intelligible) and also not the same as Canaanite (I have no idea how close that one is).



How do I work this? Not just the weaving in of a foreign language but the idea that the rest of the book is written in English, even though they're not speaking English when they're in Egypt and thereabouts.










share|improve this question



























    6















    I'm writing a middle-grade novel in English. I have time-traveling kids from 1995 America who go to Ancient Egypt to join the Exodus. None of the kids speak anything but English (aside from a few words). The people they visit mostly speak Canaanite, an ancient form of Hebrew. (There are other languages there but let's put that aside.)



    My big it's a fantasy book for kids for crying out loud handwave is that there is a magical invisible Universal Translator (think Doctor Who, but without any tech). To the kids, everyone's speaking English (though they know this isn't the case). To the locals, the kids speak and understand them just fine (though they might not know all the vocabulary). In reality, everyone's speaking the local language(s), languages the kids retain when they go home.



    The locals are folks that love to sing and dance and I plan to put snippets of songs into the book. For some or most of them, I'll just use English. But a few of the songs will come from Jewish liturgy or straight out of the Torah. Or both, like in the case of Mi Chamocha (aka The Song of the Sea), a song of praise that the Hebrews sang after successfully crossing the Red Sea. The lyrics are right in the book of Exodus and it's a song we sing every week in synagogue.



    I'd like those songs to be in Hebrew. I may also put in a few non-English words or phrases here and there. There are also some English words the locals will learn as they're non-translatable ("dude!").



    I'll write it so that the readers don't have to run for a dictionary. Plenty of translations, etc. But this is a song that every synagogue-attending Jew (and every kid in Hebrew school) will recognize. Some of the words (just the main stanza) need to be from the original. (Note: while all my kids are at least part Jewish, none of them have attended synagogue and they don't know the songs.)



    I will use transliteration only and it will be in Biblical Hebrew, which is not the same as modern Hebrew (though they're more or less mutually intelligible) and also not the same as Canaanite (I have no idea how close that one is).



    How do I work this? Not just the weaving in of a foreign language but the idea that the rest of the book is written in English, even though they're not speaking English when they're in Egypt and thereabouts.










    share|improve this question

























      6












      6








      6


      1






      I'm writing a middle-grade novel in English. I have time-traveling kids from 1995 America who go to Ancient Egypt to join the Exodus. None of the kids speak anything but English (aside from a few words). The people they visit mostly speak Canaanite, an ancient form of Hebrew. (There are other languages there but let's put that aside.)



      My big it's a fantasy book for kids for crying out loud handwave is that there is a magical invisible Universal Translator (think Doctor Who, but without any tech). To the kids, everyone's speaking English (though they know this isn't the case). To the locals, the kids speak and understand them just fine (though they might not know all the vocabulary). In reality, everyone's speaking the local language(s), languages the kids retain when they go home.



      The locals are folks that love to sing and dance and I plan to put snippets of songs into the book. For some or most of them, I'll just use English. But a few of the songs will come from Jewish liturgy or straight out of the Torah. Or both, like in the case of Mi Chamocha (aka The Song of the Sea), a song of praise that the Hebrews sang after successfully crossing the Red Sea. The lyrics are right in the book of Exodus and it's a song we sing every week in synagogue.



      I'd like those songs to be in Hebrew. I may also put in a few non-English words or phrases here and there. There are also some English words the locals will learn as they're non-translatable ("dude!").



      I'll write it so that the readers don't have to run for a dictionary. Plenty of translations, etc. But this is a song that every synagogue-attending Jew (and every kid in Hebrew school) will recognize. Some of the words (just the main stanza) need to be from the original. (Note: while all my kids are at least part Jewish, none of them have attended synagogue and they don't know the songs.)



      I will use transliteration only and it will be in Biblical Hebrew, which is not the same as modern Hebrew (though they're more or less mutually intelligible) and also not the same as Canaanite (I have no idea how close that one is).



      How do I work this? Not just the weaving in of a foreign language but the idea that the rest of the book is written in English, even though they're not speaking English when they're in Egypt and thereabouts.










      share|improve this question














      I'm writing a middle-grade novel in English. I have time-traveling kids from 1995 America who go to Ancient Egypt to join the Exodus. None of the kids speak anything but English (aside from a few words). The people they visit mostly speak Canaanite, an ancient form of Hebrew. (There are other languages there but let's put that aside.)



      My big it's a fantasy book for kids for crying out loud handwave is that there is a magical invisible Universal Translator (think Doctor Who, but without any tech). To the kids, everyone's speaking English (though they know this isn't the case). To the locals, the kids speak and understand them just fine (though they might not know all the vocabulary). In reality, everyone's speaking the local language(s), languages the kids retain when they go home.



      The locals are folks that love to sing and dance and I plan to put snippets of songs into the book. For some or most of them, I'll just use English. But a few of the songs will come from Jewish liturgy or straight out of the Torah. Or both, like in the case of Mi Chamocha (aka The Song of the Sea), a song of praise that the Hebrews sang after successfully crossing the Red Sea. The lyrics are right in the book of Exodus and it's a song we sing every week in synagogue.



      I'd like those songs to be in Hebrew. I may also put in a few non-English words or phrases here and there. There are also some English words the locals will learn as they're non-translatable ("dude!").



      I'll write it so that the readers don't have to run for a dictionary. Plenty of translations, etc. But this is a song that every synagogue-attending Jew (and every kid in Hebrew school) will recognize. Some of the words (just the main stanza) need to be from the original. (Note: while all my kids are at least part Jewish, none of them have attended synagogue and they don't know the songs.)



      I will use transliteration only and it will be in Biblical Hebrew, which is not the same as modern Hebrew (though they're more or less mutually intelligible) and also not the same as Canaanite (I have no idea how close that one is).



      How do I work this? Not just the weaving in of a foreign language but the idea that the rest of the book is written in English, even though they're not speaking English when they're in Egypt and thereabouts.







      translation language lyrics middle-grade






      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question











      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question










      asked 11 hours ago









      CynCyn

      11.7k12559




      11.7k12559






















          4 Answers
          4






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          7














          These are songs, and we learn songs differently from spoken language. Have you ever found yourself singing along to a favorite song in a language you don't even speak, but you've listened to the recording enough to have memorized it? You were almost certainly helped by meter and perhaps rhyme, by the way.



          All of this can be true for your kids. No, they don't know the songs from attending synagogue, but they might well have heard them anyway (especially Mi Chamocha). Maybe Grandma likes to sing or Dad has records (remember those?) he used to play a lot or they were around friends practicing for bar mitzvah. They can have been exposed without actually knowing the songs -- and that can be enough to "click" when they hear the ancient Hebrews singing them.



          Consider a slight tweak to your universal translator: you hear your primary language until you start to gain some familiarity with the other, and then at that point you hear the other language while still knowing what it says in your head. Your universal translator can thus be something of a teaching tool, which could play a role in the kids retaining the other languages when they get home.



          Your writing challenge, then, is to show that these songs are in fact different from other Canaanite songs they might hear in their adventures. Have your characters react to what they're hearing -- mention Grandma or Dad's records or Ben's bar mitzvah or that scene in Prince of Egypt at the theatre or whatever. Show the characters making a connection to the text in its original language, and you can justify them singing that song in that language even if 95% of what they hear is English.






          share|improve this answer
























          • I like the idea of the UT being a teaching tool. That will also help them differentiate, say, Canaanite from Egyptian from Hittite. My kids really know nothing about their Jewish heritage though. It's actually the premise of the book. Chapter 1 is a super awkward seder that the MC (age 12) puts together herself because she's never been exposed to anything Jewish before.

            – Cyn
            8 hours ago











          • Never exposed, or never knowingly exposed? Grandma might not even know what that song she likes to sing is, if she only vaguely recalls learning it from her grandma. Ok, the bar mitzvah isn't going to work in your story, but people can pick up cultural or linguistic background and not even know what it is, sometimes. Maybe you can do something with that?

            – Monica Cellio
            8 hours ago











          • Truly almost nothing. All the kids have 1,2, or 4 grandparents who were on the kindertransport to their small town. They are the only Jews there. There is a small synagogue in a town about half an hour away, but none of them go there (except two kids briefly to prep for their adventure). So all the grandparents were too young to remember or too traumatized to do anything. It's all part of the theme (generational change for the Hebrews "wandering in the desert" for 40 years. Lots of overlap. Quite intentional.

            – Cyn
            7 hours ago



















          3














          One of my favourite series of books, The Dark is Rising Sequence, has an example I feel might be helpful.



          In the last book of the series, three of the main characters are transported from modern day Wales to Wales of a hundred or more years before. At that point in time, obviously, everyone would be speaking Welsh, but to the main characters (and the reader) everything is in English. The characters even go so far as to lampshade it, saying how it sounds like English to them but obviously they themselves must be speaking Welsh just like everyone else from that time period.



          However, it's not all English to them for the entire time they're in the past. When it seems that the characters have gained all the knowledge they need from the current conversation with the locals, all of a sudden the switch is turned off and everyone returns to Welsh, leaving the main characters in the dark about what's being said. Then, when what the other people are saying is important to the story again, it's back to English.



          Perhaps you could do something like this. Maybe the magic that's taken them to the past lets them understand what's important for them to understand, but trivial information sometimes remains untranslated. So while conversations and songs important to the story (and the narrative in general) is all in English, some songs are not necessary for the characters to understand and therefore are all unintelligible.






          share|improve this answer































            2














            My communication rule is: They say what they mean as they intended it – as if all communication came right out of their brain. No phonetic accents or broken English between narrator and reader. That should be clean communication always. I feel like we all have an accent to somebody but not to ourselves, so every character deserves that dignity to communicate with the meaning they intend (not be biased because of an accent or limited vocabulary). It's a suspension of disbelief, but it allows all characters to co-exist on an equal footing.



            Where accent or language barrier needs to be expressed, I try to just describe it, rather than imitate it. If it's a story issue it can be emphasized in the feelings and perceptions, so rather than have someone drawl it's about the listener hearing a drawl. Any "othering" is moved to the character's ears, not the reader's mind. If the point is someone being alienated because they can't understand, that is better done with the emotions.



            Set some rules, and see if you can avoid explaining. Narrative voice is the hardest part of writing. The strongest thing you can do is have confidence and not draw attention to it.





            If you want a worldbuild-y excuse, the kids can have language engrams mapped to their brains (no worse than getting an eye exam). Before the trip they go to the library-language-implant-clinic, and read a few stories and watch a few videos while a computer maps their language centers. It creates new engrams for the foreign words, mapped to their own vocabulary, maybe 8000 - 10,000 words, enough for a day at the marketplace.



            A harmless and nearly painless handwavium treatment later, their brains know what the words sound and look like. They read some stories and watch a video in the old language, and yes, they can understand well enough to follow a conversation. In time, these engrams normally fade from lack of use, but it is common to get language engrams for tourism and business conferences.



            Your kids will understand the old tongue, but not be able to speak, at first, or as convenient to the plot. Some might be better than others, so they pair up. It could be handwaved or used to generate some conflict or to show how they must adapt once they are stuck there.



            I think every kid who ever had to chant or sing in a foreign language at temple would buy into this premise that vocabulary could just be zapped directly into their brain.





            Then maybe you have the singing moment and it brings the communication complications to a climax (see Monica's answer) since it is not attached to any engrams it is words they already knew.



            And again it is some suspension of disbelief because you are selling the emotions not the lyrics.






            share|improve this answer































              0














              Here's an idea: for long periods of time, we spoke Hebrew alongside other languages: Aramaic, etc., and Hebrew was in fact spoken only be the educated elite. In particular, in the Haggadah, the passage "Ha lachma ania" (הא לחמא עניא) is in Aramaic so everyone would understand (because Aramaic was the lingua franca, whereas only the educated spoke Hebrew), and in, I think, the Book of Jeremiah, during the siege of Jerusalem, there's a scene with a foreign ambassador, and the King's representative asking him to speak Hebrew, so the commoners wouldn't understand.



              Could a similar setup work for your story? Would it work if the children did not, in fact, have a good grasp of Hebrew, while "magically understanding" the common languages of the place and time they are transported to? It could even be symbolic of their detachment from their roots.






              share|improve this answer























                Your Answer








                StackExchange.ready(function() {
                var channelOptions = {
                tags: "".split(" "),
                id: "166"
                };
                initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

                StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
                // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
                if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
                StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
                createEditor();
                });
                }
                else {
                createEditor();
                }
                });

                function createEditor() {
                StackExchange.prepareEditor({
                heartbeatType: 'answer',
                autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
                convertImagesToLinks: false,
                noModals: true,
                showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
                reputationToPostImages: null,
                bindNavPrevention: true,
                postfix: "",
                imageUploader: {
                brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
                contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
                allowUrls: true
                },
                noCode: true, onDemand: true,
                discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
                ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
                });


                }
                });














                draft saved

                draft discarded


















                StackExchange.ready(
                function () {
                StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fwriting.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f42634%2fwhat-language-shall-they-sing-in%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                }
                );

                Post as a guest















                Required, but never shown

























                4 Answers
                4






                active

                oldest

                votes








                4 Answers
                4






                active

                oldest

                votes









                active

                oldest

                votes






                active

                oldest

                votes









                7














                These are songs, and we learn songs differently from spoken language. Have you ever found yourself singing along to a favorite song in a language you don't even speak, but you've listened to the recording enough to have memorized it? You were almost certainly helped by meter and perhaps rhyme, by the way.



                All of this can be true for your kids. No, they don't know the songs from attending synagogue, but they might well have heard them anyway (especially Mi Chamocha). Maybe Grandma likes to sing or Dad has records (remember those?) he used to play a lot or they were around friends practicing for bar mitzvah. They can have been exposed without actually knowing the songs -- and that can be enough to "click" when they hear the ancient Hebrews singing them.



                Consider a slight tweak to your universal translator: you hear your primary language until you start to gain some familiarity with the other, and then at that point you hear the other language while still knowing what it says in your head. Your universal translator can thus be something of a teaching tool, which could play a role in the kids retaining the other languages when they get home.



                Your writing challenge, then, is to show that these songs are in fact different from other Canaanite songs they might hear in their adventures. Have your characters react to what they're hearing -- mention Grandma or Dad's records or Ben's bar mitzvah or that scene in Prince of Egypt at the theatre or whatever. Show the characters making a connection to the text in its original language, and you can justify them singing that song in that language even if 95% of what they hear is English.






                share|improve this answer
























                • I like the idea of the UT being a teaching tool. That will also help them differentiate, say, Canaanite from Egyptian from Hittite. My kids really know nothing about their Jewish heritage though. It's actually the premise of the book. Chapter 1 is a super awkward seder that the MC (age 12) puts together herself because she's never been exposed to anything Jewish before.

                  – Cyn
                  8 hours ago











                • Never exposed, or never knowingly exposed? Grandma might not even know what that song she likes to sing is, if she only vaguely recalls learning it from her grandma. Ok, the bar mitzvah isn't going to work in your story, but people can pick up cultural or linguistic background and not even know what it is, sometimes. Maybe you can do something with that?

                  – Monica Cellio
                  8 hours ago











                • Truly almost nothing. All the kids have 1,2, or 4 grandparents who were on the kindertransport to their small town. They are the only Jews there. There is a small synagogue in a town about half an hour away, but none of them go there (except two kids briefly to prep for their adventure). So all the grandparents were too young to remember or too traumatized to do anything. It's all part of the theme (generational change for the Hebrews "wandering in the desert" for 40 years. Lots of overlap. Quite intentional.

                  – Cyn
                  7 hours ago
















                7














                These are songs, and we learn songs differently from spoken language. Have you ever found yourself singing along to a favorite song in a language you don't even speak, but you've listened to the recording enough to have memorized it? You were almost certainly helped by meter and perhaps rhyme, by the way.



                All of this can be true for your kids. No, they don't know the songs from attending synagogue, but they might well have heard them anyway (especially Mi Chamocha). Maybe Grandma likes to sing or Dad has records (remember those?) he used to play a lot or they were around friends practicing for bar mitzvah. They can have been exposed without actually knowing the songs -- and that can be enough to "click" when they hear the ancient Hebrews singing them.



                Consider a slight tweak to your universal translator: you hear your primary language until you start to gain some familiarity with the other, and then at that point you hear the other language while still knowing what it says in your head. Your universal translator can thus be something of a teaching tool, which could play a role in the kids retaining the other languages when they get home.



                Your writing challenge, then, is to show that these songs are in fact different from other Canaanite songs they might hear in their adventures. Have your characters react to what they're hearing -- mention Grandma or Dad's records or Ben's bar mitzvah or that scene in Prince of Egypt at the theatre or whatever. Show the characters making a connection to the text in its original language, and you can justify them singing that song in that language even if 95% of what they hear is English.






                share|improve this answer
























                • I like the idea of the UT being a teaching tool. That will also help them differentiate, say, Canaanite from Egyptian from Hittite. My kids really know nothing about their Jewish heritage though. It's actually the premise of the book. Chapter 1 is a super awkward seder that the MC (age 12) puts together herself because she's never been exposed to anything Jewish before.

                  – Cyn
                  8 hours ago











                • Never exposed, or never knowingly exposed? Grandma might not even know what that song she likes to sing is, if she only vaguely recalls learning it from her grandma. Ok, the bar mitzvah isn't going to work in your story, but people can pick up cultural or linguistic background and not even know what it is, sometimes. Maybe you can do something with that?

                  – Monica Cellio
                  8 hours ago











                • Truly almost nothing. All the kids have 1,2, or 4 grandparents who were on the kindertransport to their small town. They are the only Jews there. There is a small synagogue in a town about half an hour away, but none of them go there (except two kids briefly to prep for their adventure). So all the grandparents were too young to remember or too traumatized to do anything. It's all part of the theme (generational change for the Hebrews "wandering in the desert" for 40 years. Lots of overlap. Quite intentional.

                  – Cyn
                  7 hours ago














                7












                7








                7







                These are songs, and we learn songs differently from spoken language. Have you ever found yourself singing along to a favorite song in a language you don't even speak, but you've listened to the recording enough to have memorized it? You were almost certainly helped by meter and perhaps rhyme, by the way.



                All of this can be true for your kids. No, they don't know the songs from attending synagogue, but they might well have heard them anyway (especially Mi Chamocha). Maybe Grandma likes to sing or Dad has records (remember those?) he used to play a lot or they were around friends practicing for bar mitzvah. They can have been exposed without actually knowing the songs -- and that can be enough to "click" when they hear the ancient Hebrews singing them.



                Consider a slight tweak to your universal translator: you hear your primary language until you start to gain some familiarity with the other, and then at that point you hear the other language while still knowing what it says in your head. Your universal translator can thus be something of a teaching tool, which could play a role in the kids retaining the other languages when they get home.



                Your writing challenge, then, is to show that these songs are in fact different from other Canaanite songs they might hear in their adventures. Have your characters react to what they're hearing -- mention Grandma or Dad's records or Ben's bar mitzvah or that scene in Prince of Egypt at the theatre or whatever. Show the characters making a connection to the text in its original language, and you can justify them singing that song in that language even if 95% of what they hear is English.






                share|improve this answer













                These are songs, and we learn songs differently from spoken language. Have you ever found yourself singing along to a favorite song in a language you don't even speak, but you've listened to the recording enough to have memorized it? You were almost certainly helped by meter and perhaps rhyme, by the way.



                All of this can be true for your kids. No, they don't know the songs from attending synagogue, but they might well have heard them anyway (especially Mi Chamocha). Maybe Grandma likes to sing or Dad has records (remember those?) he used to play a lot or they were around friends practicing for bar mitzvah. They can have been exposed without actually knowing the songs -- and that can be enough to "click" when they hear the ancient Hebrews singing them.



                Consider a slight tweak to your universal translator: you hear your primary language until you start to gain some familiarity with the other, and then at that point you hear the other language while still knowing what it says in your head. Your universal translator can thus be something of a teaching tool, which could play a role in the kids retaining the other languages when they get home.



                Your writing challenge, then, is to show that these songs are in fact different from other Canaanite songs they might hear in their adventures. Have your characters react to what they're hearing -- mention Grandma or Dad's records or Ben's bar mitzvah or that scene in Prince of Egypt at the theatre or whatever. Show the characters making a connection to the text in its original language, and you can justify them singing that song in that language even if 95% of what they hear is English.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 8 hours ago









                Monica CellioMonica Cellio

                15k23381




                15k23381













                • I like the idea of the UT being a teaching tool. That will also help them differentiate, say, Canaanite from Egyptian from Hittite. My kids really know nothing about their Jewish heritage though. It's actually the premise of the book. Chapter 1 is a super awkward seder that the MC (age 12) puts together herself because she's never been exposed to anything Jewish before.

                  – Cyn
                  8 hours ago











                • Never exposed, or never knowingly exposed? Grandma might not even know what that song she likes to sing is, if she only vaguely recalls learning it from her grandma. Ok, the bar mitzvah isn't going to work in your story, but people can pick up cultural or linguistic background and not even know what it is, sometimes. Maybe you can do something with that?

                  – Monica Cellio
                  8 hours ago











                • Truly almost nothing. All the kids have 1,2, or 4 grandparents who were on the kindertransport to their small town. They are the only Jews there. There is a small synagogue in a town about half an hour away, but none of them go there (except two kids briefly to prep for their adventure). So all the grandparents were too young to remember or too traumatized to do anything. It's all part of the theme (generational change for the Hebrews "wandering in the desert" for 40 years. Lots of overlap. Quite intentional.

                  – Cyn
                  7 hours ago



















                • I like the idea of the UT being a teaching tool. That will also help them differentiate, say, Canaanite from Egyptian from Hittite. My kids really know nothing about their Jewish heritage though. It's actually the premise of the book. Chapter 1 is a super awkward seder that the MC (age 12) puts together herself because she's never been exposed to anything Jewish before.

                  – Cyn
                  8 hours ago











                • Never exposed, or never knowingly exposed? Grandma might not even know what that song she likes to sing is, if she only vaguely recalls learning it from her grandma. Ok, the bar mitzvah isn't going to work in your story, but people can pick up cultural or linguistic background and not even know what it is, sometimes. Maybe you can do something with that?

                  – Monica Cellio
                  8 hours ago











                • Truly almost nothing. All the kids have 1,2, or 4 grandparents who were on the kindertransport to their small town. They are the only Jews there. There is a small synagogue in a town about half an hour away, but none of them go there (except two kids briefly to prep for their adventure). So all the grandparents were too young to remember or too traumatized to do anything. It's all part of the theme (generational change for the Hebrews "wandering in the desert" for 40 years. Lots of overlap. Quite intentional.

                  – Cyn
                  7 hours ago

















                I like the idea of the UT being a teaching tool. That will also help them differentiate, say, Canaanite from Egyptian from Hittite. My kids really know nothing about their Jewish heritage though. It's actually the premise of the book. Chapter 1 is a super awkward seder that the MC (age 12) puts together herself because she's never been exposed to anything Jewish before.

                – Cyn
                8 hours ago





                I like the idea of the UT being a teaching tool. That will also help them differentiate, say, Canaanite from Egyptian from Hittite. My kids really know nothing about their Jewish heritage though. It's actually the premise of the book. Chapter 1 is a super awkward seder that the MC (age 12) puts together herself because she's never been exposed to anything Jewish before.

                – Cyn
                8 hours ago













                Never exposed, or never knowingly exposed? Grandma might not even know what that song she likes to sing is, if she only vaguely recalls learning it from her grandma. Ok, the bar mitzvah isn't going to work in your story, but people can pick up cultural or linguistic background and not even know what it is, sometimes. Maybe you can do something with that?

                – Monica Cellio
                8 hours ago





                Never exposed, or never knowingly exposed? Grandma might not even know what that song she likes to sing is, if she only vaguely recalls learning it from her grandma. Ok, the bar mitzvah isn't going to work in your story, but people can pick up cultural or linguistic background and not even know what it is, sometimes. Maybe you can do something with that?

                – Monica Cellio
                8 hours ago













                Truly almost nothing. All the kids have 1,2, or 4 grandparents who were on the kindertransport to their small town. They are the only Jews there. There is a small synagogue in a town about half an hour away, but none of them go there (except two kids briefly to prep for their adventure). So all the grandparents were too young to remember or too traumatized to do anything. It's all part of the theme (generational change for the Hebrews "wandering in the desert" for 40 years. Lots of overlap. Quite intentional.

                – Cyn
                7 hours ago





                Truly almost nothing. All the kids have 1,2, or 4 grandparents who were on the kindertransport to their small town. They are the only Jews there. There is a small synagogue in a town about half an hour away, but none of them go there (except two kids briefly to prep for their adventure). So all the grandparents were too young to remember or too traumatized to do anything. It's all part of the theme (generational change for the Hebrews "wandering in the desert" for 40 years. Lots of overlap. Quite intentional.

                – Cyn
                7 hours ago











                3














                One of my favourite series of books, The Dark is Rising Sequence, has an example I feel might be helpful.



                In the last book of the series, three of the main characters are transported from modern day Wales to Wales of a hundred or more years before. At that point in time, obviously, everyone would be speaking Welsh, but to the main characters (and the reader) everything is in English. The characters even go so far as to lampshade it, saying how it sounds like English to them but obviously they themselves must be speaking Welsh just like everyone else from that time period.



                However, it's not all English to them for the entire time they're in the past. When it seems that the characters have gained all the knowledge they need from the current conversation with the locals, all of a sudden the switch is turned off and everyone returns to Welsh, leaving the main characters in the dark about what's being said. Then, when what the other people are saying is important to the story again, it's back to English.



                Perhaps you could do something like this. Maybe the magic that's taken them to the past lets them understand what's important for them to understand, but trivial information sometimes remains untranslated. So while conversations and songs important to the story (and the narrative in general) is all in English, some songs are not necessary for the characters to understand and therefore are all unintelligible.






                share|improve this answer




























                  3














                  One of my favourite series of books, The Dark is Rising Sequence, has an example I feel might be helpful.



                  In the last book of the series, three of the main characters are transported from modern day Wales to Wales of a hundred or more years before. At that point in time, obviously, everyone would be speaking Welsh, but to the main characters (and the reader) everything is in English. The characters even go so far as to lampshade it, saying how it sounds like English to them but obviously they themselves must be speaking Welsh just like everyone else from that time period.



                  However, it's not all English to them for the entire time they're in the past. When it seems that the characters have gained all the knowledge they need from the current conversation with the locals, all of a sudden the switch is turned off and everyone returns to Welsh, leaving the main characters in the dark about what's being said. Then, when what the other people are saying is important to the story again, it's back to English.



                  Perhaps you could do something like this. Maybe the magic that's taken them to the past lets them understand what's important for them to understand, but trivial information sometimes remains untranslated. So while conversations and songs important to the story (and the narrative in general) is all in English, some songs are not necessary for the characters to understand and therefore are all unintelligible.






                  share|improve this answer


























                    3












                    3








                    3







                    One of my favourite series of books, The Dark is Rising Sequence, has an example I feel might be helpful.



                    In the last book of the series, three of the main characters are transported from modern day Wales to Wales of a hundred or more years before. At that point in time, obviously, everyone would be speaking Welsh, but to the main characters (and the reader) everything is in English. The characters even go so far as to lampshade it, saying how it sounds like English to them but obviously they themselves must be speaking Welsh just like everyone else from that time period.



                    However, it's not all English to them for the entire time they're in the past. When it seems that the characters have gained all the knowledge they need from the current conversation with the locals, all of a sudden the switch is turned off and everyone returns to Welsh, leaving the main characters in the dark about what's being said. Then, when what the other people are saying is important to the story again, it's back to English.



                    Perhaps you could do something like this. Maybe the magic that's taken them to the past lets them understand what's important for them to understand, but trivial information sometimes remains untranslated. So while conversations and songs important to the story (and the narrative in general) is all in English, some songs are not necessary for the characters to understand and therefore are all unintelligible.






                    share|improve this answer













                    One of my favourite series of books, The Dark is Rising Sequence, has an example I feel might be helpful.



                    In the last book of the series, three of the main characters are transported from modern day Wales to Wales of a hundred or more years before. At that point in time, obviously, everyone would be speaking Welsh, but to the main characters (and the reader) everything is in English. The characters even go so far as to lampshade it, saying how it sounds like English to them but obviously they themselves must be speaking Welsh just like everyone else from that time period.



                    However, it's not all English to them for the entire time they're in the past. When it seems that the characters have gained all the knowledge they need from the current conversation with the locals, all of a sudden the switch is turned off and everyone returns to Welsh, leaving the main characters in the dark about what's being said. Then, when what the other people are saying is important to the story again, it's back to English.



                    Perhaps you could do something like this. Maybe the magic that's taken them to the past lets them understand what's important for them to understand, but trivial information sometimes remains untranslated. So while conversations and songs important to the story (and the narrative in general) is all in English, some songs are not necessary for the characters to understand and therefore are all unintelligible.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 10 hours ago









                    s.anne.ws.anne.w

                    57218




                    57218























                        2














                        My communication rule is: They say what they mean as they intended it – as if all communication came right out of their brain. No phonetic accents or broken English between narrator and reader. That should be clean communication always. I feel like we all have an accent to somebody but not to ourselves, so every character deserves that dignity to communicate with the meaning they intend (not be biased because of an accent or limited vocabulary). It's a suspension of disbelief, but it allows all characters to co-exist on an equal footing.



                        Where accent or language barrier needs to be expressed, I try to just describe it, rather than imitate it. If it's a story issue it can be emphasized in the feelings and perceptions, so rather than have someone drawl it's about the listener hearing a drawl. Any "othering" is moved to the character's ears, not the reader's mind. If the point is someone being alienated because they can't understand, that is better done with the emotions.



                        Set some rules, and see if you can avoid explaining. Narrative voice is the hardest part of writing. The strongest thing you can do is have confidence and not draw attention to it.





                        If you want a worldbuild-y excuse, the kids can have language engrams mapped to their brains (no worse than getting an eye exam). Before the trip they go to the library-language-implant-clinic, and read a few stories and watch a few videos while a computer maps their language centers. It creates new engrams for the foreign words, mapped to their own vocabulary, maybe 8000 - 10,000 words, enough for a day at the marketplace.



                        A harmless and nearly painless handwavium treatment later, their brains know what the words sound and look like. They read some stories and watch a video in the old language, and yes, they can understand well enough to follow a conversation. In time, these engrams normally fade from lack of use, but it is common to get language engrams for tourism and business conferences.



                        Your kids will understand the old tongue, but not be able to speak, at first, or as convenient to the plot. Some might be better than others, so they pair up. It could be handwaved or used to generate some conflict or to show how they must adapt once they are stuck there.



                        I think every kid who ever had to chant or sing in a foreign language at temple would buy into this premise that vocabulary could just be zapped directly into their brain.





                        Then maybe you have the singing moment and it brings the communication complications to a climax (see Monica's answer) since it is not attached to any engrams it is words they already knew.



                        And again it is some suspension of disbelief because you are selling the emotions not the lyrics.






                        share|improve this answer




























                          2














                          My communication rule is: They say what they mean as they intended it – as if all communication came right out of their brain. No phonetic accents or broken English between narrator and reader. That should be clean communication always. I feel like we all have an accent to somebody but not to ourselves, so every character deserves that dignity to communicate with the meaning they intend (not be biased because of an accent or limited vocabulary). It's a suspension of disbelief, but it allows all characters to co-exist on an equal footing.



                          Where accent or language barrier needs to be expressed, I try to just describe it, rather than imitate it. If it's a story issue it can be emphasized in the feelings and perceptions, so rather than have someone drawl it's about the listener hearing a drawl. Any "othering" is moved to the character's ears, not the reader's mind. If the point is someone being alienated because they can't understand, that is better done with the emotions.



                          Set some rules, and see if you can avoid explaining. Narrative voice is the hardest part of writing. The strongest thing you can do is have confidence and not draw attention to it.





                          If you want a worldbuild-y excuse, the kids can have language engrams mapped to their brains (no worse than getting an eye exam). Before the trip they go to the library-language-implant-clinic, and read a few stories and watch a few videos while a computer maps their language centers. It creates new engrams for the foreign words, mapped to their own vocabulary, maybe 8000 - 10,000 words, enough for a day at the marketplace.



                          A harmless and nearly painless handwavium treatment later, their brains know what the words sound and look like. They read some stories and watch a video in the old language, and yes, they can understand well enough to follow a conversation. In time, these engrams normally fade from lack of use, but it is common to get language engrams for tourism and business conferences.



                          Your kids will understand the old tongue, but not be able to speak, at first, or as convenient to the plot. Some might be better than others, so they pair up. It could be handwaved or used to generate some conflict or to show how they must adapt once they are stuck there.



                          I think every kid who ever had to chant or sing in a foreign language at temple would buy into this premise that vocabulary could just be zapped directly into their brain.





                          Then maybe you have the singing moment and it brings the communication complications to a climax (see Monica's answer) since it is not attached to any engrams it is words they already knew.



                          And again it is some suspension of disbelief because you are selling the emotions not the lyrics.






                          share|improve this answer


























                            2












                            2








                            2







                            My communication rule is: They say what they mean as they intended it – as if all communication came right out of their brain. No phonetic accents or broken English between narrator and reader. That should be clean communication always. I feel like we all have an accent to somebody but not to ourselves, so every character deserves that dignity to communicate with the meaning they intend (not be biased because of an accent or limited vocabulary). It's a suspension of disbelief, but it allows all characters to co-exist on an equal footing.



                            Where accent or language barrier needs to be expressed, I try to just describe it, rather than imitate it. If it's a story issue it can be emphasized in the feelings and perceptions, so rather than have someone drawl it's about the listener hearing a drawl. Any "othering" is moved to the character's ears, not the reader's mind. If the point is someone being alienated because they can't understand, that is better done with the emotions.



                            Set some rules, and see if you can avoid explaining. Narrative voice is the hardest part of writing. The strongest thing you can do is have confidence and not draw attention to it.





                            If you want a worldbuild-y excuse, the kids can have language engrams mapped to their brains (no worse than getting an eye exam). Before the trip they go to the library-language-implant-clinic, and read a few stories and watch a few videos while a computer maps their language centers. It creates new engrams for the foreign words, mapped to their own vocabulary, maybe 8000 - 10,000 words, enough for a day at the marketplace.



                            A harmless and nearly painless handwavium treatment later, their brains know what the words sound and look like. They read some stories and watch a video in the old language, and yes, they can understand well enough to follow a conversation. In time, these engrams normally fade from lack of use, but it is common to get language engrams for tourism and business conferences.



                            Your kids will understand the old tongue, but not be able to speak, at first, or as convenient to the plot. Some might be better than others, so they pair up. It could be handwaved or used to generate some conflict or to show how they must adapt once they are stuck there.



                            I think every kid who ever had to chant or sing in a foreign language at temple would buy into this premise that vocabulary could just be zapped directly into their brain.





                            Then maybe you have the singing moment and it brings the communication complications to a climax (see Monica's answer) since it is not attached to any engrams it is words they already knew.



                            And again it is some suspension of disbelief because you are selling the emotions not the lyrics.






                            share|improve this answer













                            My communication rule is: They say what they mean as they intended it – as if all communication came right out of their brain. No phonetic accents or broken English between narrator and reader. That should be clean communication always. I feel like we all have an accent to somebody but not to ourselves, so every character deserves that dignity to communicate with the meaning they intend (not be biased because of an accent or limited vocabulary). It's a suspension of disbelief, but it allows all characters to co-exist on an equal footing.



                            Where accent or language barrier needs to be expressed, I try to just describe it, rather than imitate it. If it's a story issue it can be emphasized in the feelings and perceptions, so rather than have someone drawl it's about the listener hearing a drawl. Any "othering" is moved to the character's ears, not the reader's mind. If the point is someone being alienated because they can't understand, that is better done with the emotions.



                            Set some rules, and see if you can avoid explaining. Narrative voice is the hardest part of writing. The strongest thing you can do is have confidence and not draw attention to it.





                            If you want a worldbuild-y excuse, the kids can have language engrams mapped to their brains (no worse than getting an eye exam). Before the trip they go to the library-language-implant-clinic, and read a few stories and watch a few videos while a computer maps their language centers. It creates new engrams for the foreign words, mapped to their own vocabulary, maybe 8000 - 10,000 words, enough for a day at the marketplace.



                            A harmless and nearly painless handwavium treatment later, their brains know what the words sound and look like. They read some stories and watch a video in the old language, and yes, they can understand well enough to follow a conversation. In time, these engrams normally fade from lack of use, but it is common to get language engrams for tourism and business conferences.



                            Your kids will understand the old tongue, but not be able to speak, at first, or as convenient to the plot. Some might be better than others, so they pair up. It could be handwaved or used to generate some conflict or to show how they must adapt once they are stuck there.



                            I think every kid who ever had to chant or sing in a foreign language at temple would buy into this premise that vocabulary could just be zapped directly into their brain.





                            Then maybe you have the singing moment and it brings the communication complications to a climax (see Monica's answer) since it is not attached to any engrams it is words they already knew.



                            And again it is some suspension of disbelief because you are selling the emotions not the lyrics.







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 6 hours ago









                            wetcircuitwetcircuit

                            11.2k22255




                            11.2k22255























                                0














                                Here's an idea: for long periods of time, we spoke Hebrew alongside other languages: Aramaic, etc., and Hebrew was in fact spoken only be the educated elite. In particular, in the Haggadah, the passage "Ha lachma ania" (הא לחמא עניא) is in Aramaic so everyone would understand (because Aramaic was the lingua franca, whereas only the educated spoke Hebrew), and in, I think, the Book of Jeremiah, during the siege of Jerusalem, there's a scene with a foreign ambassador, and the King's representative asking him to speak Hebrew, so the commoners wouldn't understand.



                                Could a similar setup work for your story? Would it work if the children did not, in fact, have a good grasp of Hebrew, while "magically understanding" the common languages of the place and time they are transported to? It could even be symbolic of their detachment from their roots.






                                share|improve this answer




























                                  0














                                  Here's an idea: for long periods of time, we spoke Hebrew alongside other languages: Aramaic, etc., and Hebrew was in fact spoken only be the educated elite. In particular, in the Haggadah, the passage "Ha lachma ania" (הא לחמא עניא) is in Aramaic so everyone would understand (because Aramaic was the lingua franca, whereas only the educated spoke Hebrew), and in, I think, the Book of Jeremiah, during the siege of Jerusalem, there's a scene with a foreign ambassador, and the King's representative asking him to speak Hebrew, so the commoners wouldn't understand.



                                  Could a similar setup work for your story? Would it work if the children did not, in fact, have a good grasp of Hebrew, while "magically understanding" the common languages of the place and time they are transported to? It could even be symbolic of their detachment from their roots.






                                  share|improve this answer


























                                    0












                                    0








                                    0







                                    Here's an idea: for long periods of time, we spoke Hebrew alongside other languages: Aramaic, etc., and Hebrew was in fact spoken only be the educated elite. In particular, in the Haggadah, the passage "Ha lachma ania" (הא לחמא עניא) is in Aramaic so everyone would understand (because Aramaic was the lingua franca, whereas only the educated spoke Hebrew), and in, I think, the Book of Jeremiah, during the siege of Jerusalem, there's a scene with a foreign ambassador, and the King's representative asking him to speak Hebrew, so the commoners wouldn't understand.



                                    Could a similar setup work for your story? Would it work if the children did not, in fact, have a good grasp of Hebrew, while "magically understanding" the common languages of the place and time they are transported to? It could even be symbolic of their detachment from their roots.






                                    share|improve this answer













                                    Here's an idea: for long periods of time, we spoke Hebrew alongside other languages: Aramaic, etc., and Hebrew was in fact spoken only be the educated elite. In particular, in the Haggadah, the passage "Ha lachma ania" (הא לחמא עניא) is in Aramaic so everyone would understand (because Aramaic was the lingua franca, whereas only the educated spoke Hebrew), and in, I think, the Book of Jeremiah, during the siege of Jerusalem, there's a scene with a foreign ambassador, and the King's representative asking him to speak Hebrew, so the commoners wouldn't understand.



                                    Could a similar setup work for your story? Would it work if the children did not, in fact, have a good grasp of Hebrew, while "magically understanding" the common languages of the place and time they are transported to? It could even be symbolic of their detachment from their roots.







                                    share|improve this answer












                                    share|improve this answer



                                    share|improve this answer










                                    answered 2 hours ago









                                    GalastelGalastel

                                    33k594174




                                    33k594174






























                                        draft saved

                                        draft discarded




















































                                        Thanks for contributing an answer to Writing Stack Exchange!


                                        • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                                        But avoid



                                        • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                                        • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                                        To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                                        draft saved


                                        draft discarded














                                        StackExchange.ready(
                                        function () {
                                        StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fwriting.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f42634%2fwhat-language-shall-they-sing-in%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                                        }
                                        );

                                        Post as a guest















                                        Required, but never shown





















































                                        Required, but never shown














                                        Required, but never shown












                                        Required, but never shown







                                        Required, but never shown

































                                        Required, but never shown














                                        Required, but never shown












                                        Required, but never shown







                                        Required, but never shown







                                        Popular posts from this blog

                                        “%fieldName is a required field.”, in Magento2 REST API Call for GET Method Type The Next...

                                        How to change City field to a dropdown in Checkout step Magento 2Magento 2 : How to change UI field(s)...

                                        變成蝙蝠會怎樣? 參考資料 外部連結 导航菜单Thomas Nagel, "What is it like to be a...