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Will temporary Dex penalties prevent you from getting the benefits of the “Two Weapon Fighting” feat if your Dex score falls below the prerequisite?



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30 pm US/Eastern)Can you use a feat if your ability falls below the prerequisite?Can spells and magic items be used to satisfy a feat's prerequisites?Do I lose access to a feat if ability drain results in no longer meeting the prerequisite?How does the Multi-Weapon Fighting feat 'replace' the Two-Weapon Fighting feat?Can a Ranger's Fighting Style be a prerequisite for the feat Two-Weapon Defense?What are the two weapon fighting penalties for a Large creature with the Lighten Weapon feat?Are Secondary Natural Attacks needed to take advantage of Multiattack?Can you use a feat if your ability falls below the prerequisite?Can a creature with one natural attack and no weapons benefit from feats that require the use of two-handed weapons?Do the Bladed Brush feat and the Slashing Grace feat work together in Pathfinder?Is the Polearm Master Feat compatible with the Two-Weapon Fighting style?What are the mechanical consequences of adding the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style to the benefits of the Dual Wielder feat?





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Our fighter is exhausted and is suffering a -6 to Dexterity as a result, bringing his Dexterity from 15 to 9.



He has the feat Two-Weapon Fighting, which reduces the penalty for fighting with two weapons. The feat has a prerequisite of 15 Dex.



Will exhaustion preclude him from getting the benefit of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat?










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  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Related question on using temporary bonuses to meet prerequisites
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Possible duplicate here.
    $endgroup$
    – Hey I Can Chan
    3 hours ago


















6












$begingroup$


Our fighter is exhausted and is suffering a -6 to Dexterity as a result, bringing his Dexterity from 15 to 9.



He has the feat Two-Weapon Fighting, which reduces the penalty for fighting with two weapons. The feat has a prerequisite of 15 Dex.



Will exhaustion preclude him from getting the benefit of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Related question on using temporary bonuses to meet prerequisites
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Possible duplicate here.
    $endgroup$
    – Hey I Can Chan
    3 hours ago














6












6








6





$begingroup$


Our fighter is exhausted and is suffering a -6 to Dexterity as a result, bringing his Dexterity from 15 to 9.



He has the feat Two-Weapon Fighting, which reduces the penalty for fighting with two weapons. The feat has a prerequisite of 15 Dex.



Will exhaustion preclude him from getting the benefit of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




Our fighter is exhausted and is suffering a -6 to Dexterity as a result, bringing his Dexterity from 15 to 9.



He has the feat Two-Weapon Fighting, which reduces the penalty for fighting with two weapons. The feat has a prerequisite of 15 Dex.



Will exhaustion preclude him from getting the benefit of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat?







pathfinder feats ability-scores






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 4 hours ago









V2Blast

27.7k598169




27.7k598169










asked 5 hours ago









JoshuaDJoshuaD

1,4801632




1,4801632








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Related question on using temporary bonuses to meet prerequisites
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Possible duplicate here.
    $endgroup$
    – Hey I Can Chan
    3 hours ago














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Related question on using temporary bonuses to meet prerequisites
    $endgroup$
    – David Coffron
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Possible duplicate here.
    $endgroup$
    – Hey I Can Chan
    3 hours ago








1




1




$begingroup$
Related question on using temporary bonuses to meet prerequisites
$endgroup$
– David Coffron
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
Related question on using temporary bonuses to meet prerequisites
$endgroup$
– David Coffron
5 hours ago












$begingroup$
Possible duplicate here.
$endgroup$
– Hey I Can Chan
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
Possible duplicate here.
$endgroup$
– Hey I Can Chan
3 hours ago










1 Answer
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$begingroup$

No, only Ability Drain does



This is what James Jacobs (Paizo's Creative Director) said about this (original post):




I am confused on the different types of Ability Damage, Drain, and Penalty. Plus some spells like Ray of Enfeeblement and Touch of Idiocy seem to even have special rules. How do these effects really work?



Ability damage only results in a penalty to actions associated with that ability score; it does NOT make you lose access to feats or spells that require ability score minimums, since your actual ability score does not lower. Only ability DRAIN can make you lose access to spells you can cast or feats that have prerequisites.



But it's not that simple. Some effects that cause ability damage or ability penalties DO have additional effects. Touch of idiocy is one such spell, since it says in the spell's description that it affects the target's ability to cast some or all of its spells if the penalty imparted to the ability score drops low enough. This is an exception to the general rule for ability scores and applies only to touch of idiocy (the point of the spell, really, is to be a lesser version of feeblemind that screws over spellcasters, after all).



Ray of enfeeblement, on the other hand, does NOT have this type of language. It merely works as a normal penalty to an ability score.





  1. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes a 3 point Intelligence penalty from Touch of Idiocy. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?



    Third.




  2. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes 3 points of Intelligence damage. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?



    Sixth.




  3. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes 3 points of Intelligence drain. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?



    Third.



  4. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes a 3 point Strength penalty from Ray of Enfeeblement. Can he Power Attack?
    Yes.



  5. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes 3 points of Strength Damage. Can he Power Attack?



    Yes.




  6. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes 3 points of Strength Drain. Can he Power Attack?



    No.






This clarification is consistent with the rules about Ability Drain, which says:




Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.







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    1 Answer
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    active

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    5












    $begingroup$

    No, only Ability Drain does



    This is what James Jacobs (Paizo's Creative Director) said about this (original post):




    I am confused on the different types of Ability Damage, Drain, and Penalty. Plus some spells like Ray of Enfeeblement and Touch of Idiocy seem to even have special rules. How do these effects really work?



    Ability damage only results in a penalty to actions associated with that ability score; it does NOT make you lose access to feats or spells that require ability score minimums, since your actual ability score does not lower. Only ability DRAIN can make you lose access to spells you can cast or feats that have prerequisites.



    But it's not that simple. Some effects that cause ability damage or ability penalties DO have additional effects. Touch of idiocy is one such spell, since it says in the spell's description that it affects the target's ability to cast some or all of its spells if the penalty imparted to the ability score drops low enough. This is an exception to the general rule for ability scores and applies only to touch of idiocy (the point of the spell, really, is to be a lesser version of feeblemind that screws over spellcasters, after all).



    Ray of enfeeblement, on the other hand, does NOT have this type of language. It merely works as a normal penalty to an ability score.





    1. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes a 3 point Intelligence penalty from Touch of Idiocy. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?



      Third.




    2. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes 3 points of Intelligence damage. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?



      Sixth.




    3. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes 3 points of Intelligence drain. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?



      Third.



    4. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes a 3 point Strength penalty from Ray of Enfeeblement. Can he Power Attack?
      Yes.



    5. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes 3 points of Strength Damage. Can he Power Attack?



      Yes.




    6. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes 3 points of Strength Drain. Can he Power Attack?



      No.






    This clarification is consistent with the rules about Ability Drain, which says:




    Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.







    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$


















      5












      $begingroup$

      No, only Ability Drain does



      This is what James Jacobs (Paizo's Creative Director) said about this (original post):




      I am confused on the different types of Ability Damage, Drain, and Penalty. Plus some spells like Ray of Enfeeblement and Touch of Idiocy seem to even have special rules. How do these effects really work?



      Ability damage only results in a penalty to actions associated with that ability score; it does NOT make you lose access to feats or spells that require ability score minimums, since your actual ability score does not lower. Only ability DRAIN can make you lose access to spells you can cast or feats that have prerequisites.



      But it's not that simple. Some effects that cause ability damage or ability penalties DO have additional effects. Touch of idiocy is one such spell, since it says in the spell's description that it affects the target's ability to cast some or all of its spells if the penalty imparted to the ability score drops low enough. This is an exception to the general rule for ability scores and applies only to touch of idiocy (the point of the spell, really, is to be a lesser version of feeblemind that screws over spellcasters, after all).



      Ray of enfeeblement, on the other hand, does NOT have this type of language. It merely works as a normal penalty to an ability score.





      1. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes a 3 point Intelligence penalty from Touch of Idiocy. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?



        Third.




      2. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes 3 points of Intelligence damage. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?



        Sixth.




      3. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes 3 points of Intelligence drain. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?



        Third.



      4. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes a 3 point Strength penalty from Ray of Enfeeblement. Can he Power Attack?
        Yes.



      5. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes 3 points of Strength Damage. Can he Power Attack?



        Yes.




      6. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes 3 points of Strength Drain. Can he Power Attack?



        No.






      This clarification is consistent with the rules about Ability Drain, which says:




      Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.







      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$
















        5












        5








        5





        $begingroup$

        No, only Ability Drain does



        This is what James Jacobs (Paizo's Creative Director) said about this (original post):




        I am confused on the different types of Ability Damage, Drain, and Penalty. Plus some spells like Ray of Enfeeblement and Touch of Idiocy seem to even have special rules. How do these effects really work?



        Ability damage only results in a penalty to actions associated with that ability score; it does NOT make you lose access to feats or spells that require ability score minimums, since your actual ability score does not lower. Only ability DRAIN can make you lose access to spells you can cast or feats that have prerequisites.



        But it's not that simple. Some effects that cause ability damage or ability penalties DO have additional effects. Touch of idiocy is one such spell, since it says in the spell's description that it affects the target's ability to cast some or all of its spells if the penalty imparted to the ability score drops low enough. This is an exception to the general rule for ability scores and applies only to touch of idiocy (the point of the spell, really, is to be a lesser version of feeblemind that screws over spellcasters, after all).



        Ray of enfeeblement, on the other hand, does NOT have this type of language. It merely works as a normal penalty to an ability score.





        1. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes a 3 point Intelligence penalty from Touch of Idiocy. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?



          Third.




        2. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes 3 points of Intelligence damage. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?



          Sixth.




        3. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes 3 points of Intelligence drain. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?



          Third.



        4. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes a 3 point Strength penalty from Ray of Enfeeblement. Can he Power Attack?
          Yes.



        5. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes 3 points of Strength Damage. Can he Power Attack?



          Yes.




        6. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes 3 points of Strength Drain. Can he Power Attack?



          No.






        This clarification is consistent with the rules about Ability Drain, which says:




        Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.







        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        No, only Ability Drain does



        This is what James Jacobs (Paizo's Creative Director) said about this (original post):




        I am confused on the different types of Ability Damage, Drain, and Penalty. Plus some spells like Ray of Enfeeblement and Touch of Idiocy seem to even have special rules. How do these effects really work?



        Ability damage only results in a penalty to actions associated with that ability score; it does NOT make you lose access to feats or spells that require ability score minimums, since your actual ability score does not lower. Only ability DRAIN can make you lose access to spells you can cast or feats that have prerequisites.



        But it's not that simple. Some effects that cause ability damage or ability penalties DO have additional effects. Touch of idiocy is one such spell, since it says in the spell's description that it affects the target's ability to cast some or all of its spells if the penalty imparted to the ability score drops low enough. This is an exception to the general rule for ability scores and applies only to touch of idiocy (the point of the spell, really, is to be a lesser version of feeblemind that screws over spellcasters, after all).



        Ray of enfeeblement, on the other hand, does NOT have this type of language. It merely works as a normal penalty to an ability score.





        1. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes a 3 point Intelligence penalty from Touch of Idiocy. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?



          Third.




        2. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes 3 points of Intelligence damage. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?



          Sixth.




        3. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes 3 points of Intelligence drain. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?



          Third.



        4. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes a 3 point Strength penalty from Ray of Enfeeblement. Can he Power Attack?
          Yes.



        5. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes 3 points of Strength Damage. Can he Power Attack?



          Yes.




        6. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes 3 points of Strength Drain. Can he Power Attack?



          No.






        This clarification is consistent with the rules about Ability Drain, which says:




        Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.








        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 5 hours ago









        ShadowKrasShadowKras

        54.2k377138




        54.2k377138






























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