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New order #4: World

Can the Produce Flame cantrip be used to grapple, or as an unarmed strike, in the right circumstances?

Can you cast and hold Produce Flame and then wield a weapon and shield?Would a monk with the tavern brawler feat have improvised weapons count as monk weapons?Can I disarm and immediately grapple with Tavern Brawler?Can Dual Wielder be used with Tavern Brawler?Can you use Magic Weapon spell on an Improvised weapon?Can you cast and hold Produce Flame and then wield a weapon and shield?With Extra Attack, can I grapple an opponent and attack with offhand dagger?Is an improvised weapon treated as similar enough to a weapon to use its properties still considered “improvised”?Does Shield turn a hit into a miss?Can a monk make Martial Arts attacks while grappling and wielding a weapon?Does the bonus damage from the Dueling fighting style apply when attacking with a shield as an improvised weapon, using the Tavern Brawler feat?

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2

$begingroup$

With the wording of produce flame, it seems like you take the cast the spell action to make the flame appear. You can then attack with it later - it does use the wording "ranged spell attack." It never addresses what you can do with it otherwise, even though you are still holding a handful of flame.

What if a tavern brawler or a Monk punches with the hand holding the flame, or uses that hand to make a special melee attack (grapple or push?)

Would that be considered a spell attack, or an unarmed strike because the hand is passively holding the flame? Could you use the flame as an improvised weapon?

Or would it be something else?

Note:

I am making a character for a silly one shot. I am not planning on trying to pull this off for a serious campaign, but it is worth trying as a goofy concept. This side note probably won't affect any answers but I wanted to include it anyway.

dnd-5e spells attack cantrips

share|improve this question

edited 2 hours ago

V2Blast

26.2k590160

asked 7 hours ago

Josiah RigganJosiah Riggan

959123

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  What are you trying to achieve? Why ranged spell attack isn't good for this?
  $endgroup$
  – enkryptor
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  I had a silly concept and wondered "can I pull this off?" If you have some fire in your hand what is stopping you from slapping someone with it? (remember this is not a very serious question)
  $endgroup$
  – Josiah Riggan
  7 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Related on Can you cast and hold produce flame and then wield a weapon and shield?
  $endgroup$
  – NautArch
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Yeah, I checked similar questions and used some of that information to ask my own, I skimmed over the answers and did not see anything regarding unarmed strikes if you know of something that does please cite it.
  $endgroup$
  – Josiah Riggan
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  3
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  No, I fully understand that you should not be able to punch with the flame in the same round as casting the spell.
  $endgroup$
  – Josiah Riggan
  6 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 5 more comments

2

$begingroup$

With the wording of produce flame, it seems like you take the cast the spell action to make the flame appear. You can then attack with it later - it does use the wording "ranged spell attack." It never addresses what you can do with it otherwise, even though you are still holding a handful of flame.

What if a tavern brawler or a Monk punches with the hand holding the flame, or uses that hand to make a special melee attack (grapple or push?)

Would that be considered a spell attack, or an unarmed strike because the hand is passively holding the flame? Could you use the flame as an improvised weapon?

Or would it be something else?

Note:

I am making a character for a silly one shot. I am not planning on trying to pull this off for a serious campaign, but it is worth trying as a goofy concept. This side note probably won't affect any answers but I wanted to include it anyway.

dnd-5e spells attack cantrips

share|improve this question

edited 2 hours ago

V2Blast

26.2k590160

asked 7 hours ago

Josiah RigganJosiah Riggan

959123

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  What are you trying to achieve? Why ranged spell attack isn't good for this?
  $endgroup$
  – enkryptor
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  I had a silly concept and wondered "can I pull this off?" If you have some fire in your hand what is stopping you from slapping someone with it? (remember this is not a very serious question)
  $endgroup$
  – Josiah Riggan
  7 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Related on Can you cast and hold produce flame and then wield a weapon and shield?
  $endgroup$
  – NautArch
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Yeah, I checked similar questions and used some of that information to ask my own, I skimmed over the answers and did not see anything regarding unarmed strikes if you know of something that does please cite it.
  $endgroup$
  – Josiah Riggan
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  3
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  No, I fully understand that you should not be able to punch with the flame in the same round as casting the spell.
  $endgroup$
  – Josiah Riggan
  6 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 5 more comments

$begingroup$

With the wording of produce flame, it seems like you take the cast the spell action to make the flame appear. You can then attack with it later - it does use the wording "ranged spell attack." It never addresses what you can do with it otherwise, even though you are still holding a handful of flame.

What if a tavern brawler or a Monk punches with the hand holding the flame, or uses that hand to make a special melee attack (grapple or push?)

Would that be considered a spell attack, or an unarmed strike because the hand is passively holding the flame? Could you use the flame as an improvised weapon?

Or would it be something else?

Note:

I am making a character for a silly one shot. I am not planning on trying to pull this off for a serious campaign, but it is worth trying as a goofy concept. This side note probably won't affect any answers but I wanted to include it anyway.

dnd-5e spells attack cantrips

share|improve this question

edited 2 hours ago

V2Blast

26.2k590160

asked 7 hours ago

Josiah RigganJosiah Riggan

959123

$endgroup$

share|improve this question

edited 2 hours ago

V2Blast

26.2k590160

asked 7 hours ago

Josiah RigganJosiah Riggan

959123

share|improve this question

edited 2 hours ago

V2Blast

26.2k590160

asked 7 hours ago

Josiah RigganJosiah Riggan

959123

edited 2 hours ago

V2Blast

26.2k590160

edited 2 hours ago

V2Blast

26.2k590160

asked 7 hours ago

Josiah RigganJosiah Riggan

959123

asked 7 hours ago

Josiah RigganJosiah Riggan

959123

1 Answer
1

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oldest

votes

15

$begingroup$

The flame does not affect an unarmed strike or a grapple

Holding a flame in your hand does not influence the mechanics of an unarmed strike. An unarmed strike is:

a punch, kick, head--butt, or similar forceful blow... [which on a hit] deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier.

Nothing restricts you utilizing an unarmed strike while holding the fire from produce flame, but nothing about the spell description affects the unarmed strike.

It's unclear to me how a hand that is currently holding a flame could be considered free, but even if it is, the same would hold for grapples as would for unarmed strikes. Nothing about the spell implies any different interaction.

Improvised Weapon

In order to qualify as an Improvised Weapon, the thing in question must be an object (emphasis mine):

An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands

The fire from produce flame is a spell effect, not an object.

Ask your GM

Since this is for a silly one shot, ask your GM if he can work with you to allow this anyway in some form.

It may be fairly balanced if it is simply changing the damage type of your unarmed strikes or serves as an improvised weapon (dealing 1d4 damage). However, I caution against allowing the full cantrip damage on top of the normal attack damage as that will drastically increase your monk's damage output, affecting game balance.

share|improve this answer

edited 7 hours ago

answered 7 hours ago

David CoffronDavid Coffron

39.7k3137284

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @NautArch my understanding was that, as an improvised weapon, it would be dealing 1d4 damage. I edited to make my balance statement more detailed
  $endgroup$
  – David Coffron
  7 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @NautArch seems like a few questions, I tried to address each
  $endgroup$
  – David Coffron
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @NautArch That will likely depend on how the GM handles it. If it is just a melee attack version of the spell attack, then balance is probably affected. If it is just a damage type change then maybe not. I will just leave my general balance statement, as there are many different ways to implement the idea
  $endgroup$
  – David Coffron
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  I was thinking that it would deal 1d4 damge.
  $endgroup$
  – Josiah Riggan
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  See my related link on ability to hold things in a hand with produce flame
  $endgroup$
  – NautArch
  6 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 1 more comment

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15

$begingroup$

The flame does not affect an unarmed strike or a grapple

Holding a flame in your hand does not influence the mechanics of an unarmed strike. An unarmed strike is:

a punch, kick, head--butt, or similar forceful blow... [which on a hit] deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier.

Nothing restricts you utilizing an unarmed strike while holding the fire from produce flame, but nothing about the spell description affects the unarmed strike.

It's unclear to me how a hand that is currently holding a flame could be considered free, but even if it is, the same would hold for grapples as would for unarmed strikes. Nothing about the spell implies any different interaction.

Improvised Weapon

In order to qualify as an Improvised Weapon, the thing in question must be an object (emphasis mine):

An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands

The fire from produce flame is a spell effect, not an object.

Ask your GM

Since this is for a silly one shot, ask your GM if he can work with you to allow this anyway in some form.

It may be fairly balanced if it is simply changing the damage type of your unarmed strikes or serves as an improvised weapon (dealing 1d4 damage). However, I caution against allowing the full cantrip damage on top of the normal attack damage as that will drastically increase your monk's damage output, affecting game balance.

share|improve this answer

edited 7 hours ago

answered 7 hours ago

David CoffronDavid Coffron

39.7k3137284

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @NautArch my understanding was that, as an improvised weapon, it would be dealing 1d4 damage. I edited to make my balance statement more detailed
  $endgroup$
  – David Coffron
  7 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @NautArch seems like a few questions, I tried to address each
  $endgroup$
  – David Coffron
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @NautArch That will likely depend on how the GM handles it. If it is just a melee attack version of the spell attack, then balance is probably affected. If it is just a damage type change then maybe not. I will just leave my general balance statement, as there are many different ways to implement the idea
  $endgroup$
  – David Coffron
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  I was thinking that it would deal 1d4 damge.
  $endgroup$
  – Josiah Riggan
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  See my related link on ability to hold things in a hand with produce flame
  $endgroup$
  – NautArch
  6 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 1 more comment

15

$begingroup$

The flame does not affect an unarmed strike or a grapple

Holding a flame in your hand does not influence the mechanics of an unarmed strike. An unarmed strike is:

a punch, kick, head--butt, or similar forceful blow... [which on a hit] deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier.

Nothing restricts you utilizing an unarmed strike while holding the fire from produce flame, but nothing about the spell description affects the unarmed strike.

It's unclear to me how a hand that is currently holding a flame could be considered free, but even if it is, the same would hold for grapples as would for unarmed strikes. Nothing about the spell implies any different interaction.

Improvised Weapon

In order to qualify as an Improvised Weapon, the thing in question must be an object (emphasis mine):

An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands

The fire from produce flame is a spell effect, not an object.

Ask your GM

Since this is for a silly one shot, ask your GM if he can work with you to allow this anyway in some form.

It may be fairly balanced if it is simply changing the damage type of your unarmed strikes or serves as an improvised weapon (dealing 1d4 damage). However, I caution against allowing the full cantrip damage on top of the normal attack damage as that will drastically increase your monk's damage output, affecting game balance.

share|improve this answer

edited 7 hours ago

answered 7 hours ago

David CoffronDavid Coffron

39.7k3137284

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @NautArch my understanding was that, as an improvised weapon, it would be dealing 1d4 damage. I edited to make my balance statement more detailed
  $endgroup$
  – David Coffron
  7 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @NautArch seems like a few questions, I tried to address each
  $endgroup$
  – David Coffron
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @NautArch That will likely depend on how the GM handles it. If it is just a melee attack version of the spell attack, then balance is probably affected. If it is just a damage type change then maybe not. I will just leave my general balance statement, as there are many different ways to implement the idea
  $endgroup$
  – David Coffron
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  I was thinking that it would deal 1d4 damge.
  $endgroup$
  – Josiah Riggan
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  See my related link on ability to hold things in a hand with produce flame
  $endgroup$
  – NautArch
  6 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 1 more comment

$begingroup$

The flame does not affect an unarmed strike or a grapple

Holding a flame in your hand does not influence the mechanics of an unarmed strike. An unarmed strike is:

a punch, kick, head--butt, or similar forceful blow... [which on a hit] deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier.

Nothing restricts you utilizing an unarmed strike while holding the fire from produce flame, but nothing about the spell description affects the unarmed strike.

It's unclear to me how a hand that is currently holding a flame could be considered free, but even if it is, the same would hold for grapples as would for unarmed strikes. Nothing about the spell implies any different interaction.

Improvised Weapon

In order to qualify as an Improvised Weapon, the thing in question must be an object (emphasis mine):

An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands

The fire from produce flame is a spell effect, not an object.

Ask your GM

Since this is for a silly one shot, ask your GM if he can work with you to allow this anyway in some form.

It may be fairly balanced if it is simply changing the damage type of your unarmed strikes or serves as an improvised weapon (dealing 1d4 damage). However, I caution against allowing the full cantrip damage on top of the normal attack damage as that will drastically increase your monk's damage output, affecting game balance.

share|improve this answer

edited 7 hours ago

answered 7 hours ago

David CoffronDavid Coffron

39.7k3137284

$endgroup$

share|improve this answer

edited 7 hours ago

answered 7 hours ago

David CoffronDavid Coffron

39.7k3137284

answered 7 hours ago

David CoffronDavid Coffron

39.7k3137284

answered 7 hours ago

David CoffronDavid Coffron

39.7k3137284