The use of the spellings -zz- vs. -z-Difference between ò and ó?List of pairs of words (having different...
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The use of the spellings -zz- vs. -z-
Difference between ò and ó?List of pairs of words (having different meaning) differing only in a stressed final e vowel (which must be either è or é)?How children learn spelling and pronounciation (in elementary). Italian-speaking kids versus English-speaking kids.Complete list of nonforeign spelling exceptions involving the use of the letter “h” in Italian?Any Italians pronouncing pèsca and pésca differently?I need to know how to pronounce the name “Job” in ItalianWhat words that have vowel + s + vowel are pronunced /s/ instead of /z/?Are certain single vowel words merely dropped?Why are the endings to these two words pronounced differently? Mangia ~ GenealogiaDoes R + vowel at starts of a word pronounce like RR?
Is there any reason why some words are spelled with -zz-, but others are spelled with -z- between vowels?
My understanding is that either spelling can correspond to either of the following two consonant sounds: a long voiceless affricate [t.t͡s] or a long voiced affricate [d.d͡z]. (Phonologically, I've seen sources that indicate that Italian speakers may think of these as /t͡s.t͡s/ and /d͡z.d͡z/ respectively.) The linguistic sources I've read say that single [t͡s] and [d͡z] don't occur between vowels in (standard) Italian.
But some introductory descriptions that I see online use wishy-washy phrasing, like this one here:
Double z is pronounced almost the same as single z.
("Italian Language Guide". Bolding added by me.)
Is there any basis for saying that Italian speakers really pronounce -zz- "almost" the same as -z- rather than exactly the same as -z- (between vowels)?
If they are pronounced the same (as I think), why are some words spelled with -zz- and others with -z-?
pronunciation spelling geminate-consonants
asked 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
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sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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|
show 1 more comment
Is there any reason why some words are spelled with -zz-, but others are spelled with -z- between vowels?
My understanding is that either spelling can correspond to either of the following two consonant sounds: a long voiceless affricate [t.t͡s] or a long voiced affricate [d.d͡z]. (Phonologically, I've seen sources that indicate that Italian speakers may think of these as /t͡s.t͡s/ and /d͡z.d͡z/ respectively.) The linguistic sources I've read say that single [t͡s] and [d͡z] don't occur between vowels in (standard) Italian.
But some introductory descriptions that I see online use wishy-washy phrasing, like this one here:
Double z is pronounced almost the same as single z.
("Italian Language Guide". Bolding added by me.)
Is there any basis for saying that Italian speakers really pronounce -zz- "almost" the same as -z- rather than exactly the same as -z- (between vowels)?
If they are pronounced the same (as I think), why are some words spelled with -zz- and others with -z-?
pronunciation spelling geminate-consonants
asked 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
Welcome to Italian.SE!
– Charo♦
1 hour ago
Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.
– Denis Nardin♦
51 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.
– DaG
45 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Regional differences are a thing, but so is standard pronunciation, and learners as well as native speakers should be encouraged to stick to that (studying it). Some regional parlances are more frowned upon than others, but that's another thing.
– Vincenzo Oliva
21 mins ago
@VincenzoOliva You have a point with learners, but I will respectfully disagree with respect to native speakers. But my point was that this phenomenon has probably developed in the opposite order than posited in the question: first someone decided the spelling (based on who knows what, maybe their own phontactics, maybe historical spelling in Greek), and then centuries later the standard pronunciation was established (presumably sometime in the nineteenth century), so the question would be more"why did the standard pronunciation disallows [t.ts]?",rather than "why is [ts] spelled like zz?"
– Denis Nardin♦
14 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
Is there any reason why some words are spelled with -zz-, but others are spelled with -z- between vowels?
My understanding is that either spelling can correspond to either of the following two consonant sounds: a long voiceless affricate [t.t͡s] or a long voiced affricate [d.d͡z]. (Phonologically, I've seen sources that indicate that Italian speakers may think of these as /t͡s.t͡s/ and /d͡z.d͡z/ respectively.) The linguistic sources I've read say that single [t͡s] and [d͡z] don't occur between vowels in (standard) Italian.
But some introductory descriptions that I see online use wishy-washy phrasing, like this one here:
Double z is pronounced almost the same as single z.
("Italian Language Guide". Bolding added by me.)
Is there any basis for saying that Italian speakers really pronounce -zz- "almost" the same as -z- rather than exactly the same as -z- (between vowels)?
If they are pronounced the same (as I think), why are some words spelled with -zz- and others with -z-?
pronunciation spelling geminate-consonants
asked 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Is there any reason why some words are spelled with -zz-, but others are spelled with -z- between vowels?
My understanding is that either spelling can correspond to either of the following two consonant sounds: a long voiceless affricate [t.t͡s] or a long voiced affricate [d.d͡z]. (Phonologically, I've seen sources that indicate that Italian speakers may think of these as /t͡s.t͡s/ and /d͡z.d͡z/ respectively.) The linguistic sources I've read say that single [t͡s] and [d͡z] don't occur between vowels in (standard) Italian.
But some introductory descriptions that I see online use wishy-washy phrasing, like this one here:
Double z is pronounced almost the same as single z.
("Italian Language Guide". Bolding added by me.)
Is there any basis for saying that Italian speakers really pronounce -zz- "almost" the same as -z- rather than exactly the same as -z- (between vowels)?
If they are pronounced the same (as I think), why are some words spelled with -zz- and others with -z-?
pronunciation spelling geminate-consonants
pronunciation spelling geminate-consonants
asked 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
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sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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edited 44 mins ago
sumelic
asked 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
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sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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asked 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
asked 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
1415
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sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
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1
Welcome to Italian.SE!
– Charo♦
1 hour ago
Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.
– Denis Nardin♦
51 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.
– DaG
45 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Regional differences are a thing, but so is standard pronunciation, and learners as well as native speakers should be encouraged to stick to that (studying it). Some regional parlances are more frowned upon than others, but that's another thing.
– Vincenzo Oliva
21 mins ago
@VincenzoOliva You have a point with learners, but I will respectfully disagree with respect to native speakers. But my point was that this phenomenon has probably developed in the opposite order than posited in the question: first someone decided the spelling (based on who knows what, maybe their own phontactics, maybe historical spelling in Greek), and then centuries later the standard pronunciation was established (presumably sometime in the nineteenth century), so the question would be more"why did the standard pronunciation disallows [t.ts]?",rather than "why is [ts] spelled like zz?"
– Denis Nardin♦
14 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
1
Welcome to Italian.SE!
– Charo♦
1 hour ago
Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.
– Denis Nardin♦
51 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.
– DaG
45 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Regional differences are a thing, but so is standard pronunciation, and learners as well as native speakers should be encouraged to stick to that (studying it). Some regional parlances are more frowned upon than others, but that's another thing.
– Vincenzo Oliva
21 mins ago
@VincenzoOliva You have a point with learners, but I will respectfully disagree with respect to native speakers. But my point was that this phenomenon has probably developed in the opposite order than posited in the question: first someone decided the spelling (based on who knows what, maybe their own phontactics, maybe historical spelling in Greek), and then centuries later the standard pronunciation was established (presumably sometime in the nineteenth century), so the question would be more"why did the standard pronunciation disallows [t.ts]?",rather than "why is [ts] spelled like zz?"
– Denis Nardin♦
14 mins ago
1
1
Welcome to Italian.SE!
– Charo♦
1 hour ago
Welcome to Italian.SE!
– Charo♦
1 hour ago
Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.
– Denis Nardin♦
51 mins ago
Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.
– Denis Nardin♦
51 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.
– DaG
45 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.
– DaG
45 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Regional differences are a thing, but so is standard pronunciation, and learners as well as native speakers should be encouraged to stick to that (studying it). Some regional parlances are more frowned upon than others, but that's another thing.
– Vincenzo Oliva
21 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Regional differences are a thing, but so is standard pronunciation, and learners as well as native speakers should be encouraged to stick to that (studying it). Some regional parlances are more frowned upon than others, but that's another thing.
– Vincenzo Oliva
21 mins ago
@VincenzoOliva You have a point with learners, but I will respectfully disagree with respect to native speakers. But my point was that this phenomenon has probably developed in the opposite order than posited in the question: first someone decided the spelling (based on who knows what, maybe their own phontactics, maybe historical spelling in Greek), and then centuries later the standard pronunciation was established (presumably sometime in the nineteenth century), so the question would be more"why did the standard pronunciation disallows [t.ts]?",rather than "why is [ts] spelled like zz?"
– Denis Nardin♦
14 mins ago
@VincenzoOliva You have a point with learners, but I will respectfully disagree with respect to native speakers. But my point was that this phenomenon has probably developed in the opposite order than posited in the question: first someone decided the spelling (based on who knows what, maybe their own phontactics, maybe historical spelling in Greek), and then centuries later the standard pronunciation was established (presumably sometime in the nineteenth century), so the question would be more"why did the standard pronunciation disallows [t.ts]?",rather than "why is [ts] spelled like zz?"
– Denis Nardin♦
14 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
1 Answer
1
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This isn't a complete answer, but while Googling to try to find out more, I came across the following explanation for why some speakers might think there is a difference in pronunciation:
The orthographic distinction between 'z' and 'zz' induces some speakers to distinguish length in pronunciation (spazi 'spaces' spatsi vs. spazzi 'you sweep' spattsi) despite the fact that, in the standard language, both spellings are pronounced long in intervocalic position. Given that northern Italians often fail to observe consonantal length distinctions, in their speech the differentiation of the two 'z''s may arise from hypercorrection.
(Martin Maiden, 1994, A Linguistic History of Italian, 3.1.3.4)
Maiden goes on to say that
In some southern varieties, however, 'z' is pronounced long when it continues original consonant + [tj] (e.g. in concezione 'conception', azione 'action' < conceptionem, actionem), but short when it continues original vowel + [tj] (e.g. in nazione 'nation', stazione 'station' < nationem, stationem).
But the distinction for this group of speakers doesn't seem to be related to the spelling. So I still don't know where the -zz- vs. -z- spelling distinction comes from.
answered 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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This isn't a complete answer, but while Googling to try to find out more, I came across the following explanation for why some speakers might think there is a difference in pronunciation:
The orthographic distinction between 'z' and 'zz' induces some speakers to distinguish length in pronunciation (spazi 'spaces' spatsi vs. spazzi 'you sweep' spattsi) despite the fact that, in the standard language, both spellings are pronounced long in intervocalic position. Given that northern Italians often fail to observe consonantal length distinctions, in their speech the differentiation of the two 'z''s may arise from hypercorrection.
(Martin Maiden, 1994, A Linguistic History of Italian, 3.1.3.4)
Maiden goes on to say that
In some southern varieties, however, 'z' is pronounced long when it continues original consonant + [tj] (e.g. in concezione 'conception', azione 'action' < conceptionem, actionem), but short when it continues original vowel + [tj] (e.g. in nazione 'nation', stazione 'station' < nationem, stationem).
But the distinction for this group of speakers doesn't seem to be related to the spelling. So I still don't know where the -zz- vs. -z- spelling distinction comes from.
answered 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
This isn't a complete answer, but while Googling to try to find out more, I came across the following explanation for why some speakers might think there is a difference in pronunciation:
The orthographic distinction between 'z' and 'zz' induces some speakers to distinguish length in pronunciation (spazi 'spaces' spatsi vs. spazzi 'you sweep' spattsi) despite the fact that, in the standard language, both spellings are pronounced long in intervocalic position. Given that northern Italians often fail to observe consonantal length distinctions, in their speech the differentiation of the two 'z''s may arise from hypercorrection.
(Martin Maiden, 1994, A Linguistic History of Italian, 3.1.3.4)
Maiden goes on to say that
In some southern varieties, however, 'z' is pronounced long when it continues original consonant + [tj] (e.g. in concezione 'conception', azione 'action' < conceptionem, actionem), but short when it continues original vowel + [tj] (e.g. in nazione 'nation', stazione 'station' < nationem, stationem).
But the distinction for this group of speakers doesn't seem to be related to the spelling. So I still don't know where the -zz- vs. -z- spelling distinction comes from.
answered 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
This isn't a complete answer, but while Googling to try to find out more, I came across the following explanation for why some speakers might think there is a difference in pronunciation:
The orthographic distinction between 'z' and 'zz' induces some speakers to distinguish length in pronunciation (spazi 'spaces' spatsi vs. spazzi 'you sweep' spattsi) despite the fact that, in the standard language, both spellings are pronounced long in intervocalic position. Given that northern Italians often fail to observe consonantal length distinctions, in their speech the differentiation of the two 'z''s may arise from hypercorrection.
(Martin Maiden, 1994, A Linguistic History of Italian, 3.1.3.4)
Maiden goes on to say that
In some southern varieties, however, 'z' is pronounced long when it continues original consonant + [tj] (e.g. in concezione 'conception', azione 'action' < conceptionem, actionem), but short when it continues original vowel + [tj] (e.g. in nazione 'nation', stazione 'station' < nationem, stationem).
But the distinction for this group of speakers doesn't seem to be related to the spelling. So I still don't know where the -zz- vs. -z- spelling distinction comes from.
answered 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
This isn't a complete answer, but while Googling to try to find out more, I came across the following explanation for why some speakers might think there is a difference in pronunciation:
The orthographic distinction between 'z' and 'zz' induces some speakers to distinguish length in pronunciation (spazi 'spaces' spatsi vs. spazzi 'you sweep' spattsi) despite the fact that, in the standard language, both spellings are pronounced long in intervocalic position. Given that northern Italians often fail to observe consonantal length distinctions, in their speech the differentiation of the two 'z''s may arise from hypercorrection.
(Martin Maiden, 1994, A Linguistic History of Italian, 3.1.3.4)
Maiden goes on to say that
In some southern varieties, however, 'z' is pronounced long when it continues original consonant + [tj] (e.g. in concezione 'conception', azione 'action' < conceptionem, actionem), but short when it continues original vowel + [tj] (e.g. in nazione 'nation', stazione 'station' < nationem, stationem).
But the distinction for this group of speakers doesn't seem to be related to the spelling. So I still don't know where the -zz- vs. -z- spelling distinction comes from.
answered 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 4 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
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sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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answered 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
answered 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
1415
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sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
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add a comment |
add a comment |
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Welcome to Italian.SE!
– Charo♦
1 hour ago
Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.
– Denis Nardin♦
51 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.
– DaG
45 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Regional differences are a thing, but so is standard pronunciation, and learners as well as native speakers should be encouraged to stick to that (studying it). Some regional parlances are more frowned upon than others, but that's another thing.
– Vincenzo Oliva
21 mins ago
@VincenzoOliva You have a point with learners, but I will respectfully disagree with respect to native speakers. But my point was that this phenomenon has probably developed in the opposite order than posited in the question: first someone decided the spelling (based on who knows what, maybe their own phontactics, maybe historical spelling in Greek), and then centuries later the standard pronunciation was established (presumably sometime in the nineteenth century), so the question would be more"why did the standard pronunciation disallows [t.ts]?",rather than "why is [ts] spelled like zz?"
– Denis Nardin♦
14 mins ago