Jazz greats knew nothing of modes. Why are they used to improvise on standards? Announcing the...

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Jazz greats knew nothing of modes. Why are they used to improvise on standards?



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)How does modal jazz use chord progressions?What are modes and how are they useful?What are the greek modes, and how do they differ from modern modes?Why do we need modes?Do people who don't study modes improvise the same as those who do?Using modes for jazz solo improvisationHow are/were the “non-standard” modes used?How many different scales based on the modes are there?Most used scales in JazzHow long to improvise on modesWhat scales and or modes are used in rebetiko?












3















My understanding is before 1970, no Jazz players thought about modes. For certain, Charlie Parker, Colman Hawkins, Bud Powell, Art Tatum, Monk, etc never thought in modes.



Barry Harris shows how they did think, and it seems alot more simple and true to the form. Modes seem to me a projection of Western Academic ideas unto african american idioms, with little understanding or respect to the ideas behind those idioms. Basically a "takeover" of Jazz.



Please set me straight.










share|improve this question







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Charlie Webster is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • 3





    I think that George Russell introduced modes into jazz theory in the early '50s. Bill Evans, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, and others knew Russell, valued his work, and were inspired by it. People still teach and use other approaches to improvisation, e.g. triad-based, arpeggio-based, neighbor-tones for chromaticism. The commonly seen chord-scale theory is just one aspect of jazz improvisation that makes a good soundbite.

    – David Bowling
    1 hour ago








  • 1





    I think that Jamie Aebersold's play-a-long series had a lot to do with this transition, even more so than George Russell. Every volume has the same explanation of chord-scale theory, and those books have been the introduction to jazz theory for millions of people.

    – Peter
    56 mins ago








  • 1





    @Peter -- that's a good point; Aebersold, the rise of jazz clinics, the institutionalization of jazz with the advent of jazz schools like Berklee pumping out players to spread chord-scale theory. All of this really seemed to take off in the '70s and '80s.

    – David Bowling
    41 mins ago
















3















My understanding is before 1970, no Jazz players thought about modes. For certain, Charlie Parker, Colman Hawkins, Bud Powell, Art Tatum, Monk, etc never thought in modes.



Barry Harris shows how they did think, and it seems alot more simple and true to the form. Modes seem to me a projection of Western Academic ideas unto african american idioms, with little understanding or respect to the ideas behind those idioms. Basically a "takeover" of Jazz.



Please set me straight.










share|improve this question







New contributor




Charlie Webster is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 3





    I think that George Russell introduced modes into jazz theory in the early '50s. Bill Evans, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, and others knew Russell, valued his work, and were inspired by it. People still teach and use other approaches to improvisation, e.g. triad-based, arpeggio-based, neighbor-tones for chromaticism. The commonly seen chord-scale theory is just one aspect of jazz improvisation that makes a good soundbite.

    – David Bowling
    1 hour ago








  • 1





    I think that Jamie Aebersold's play-a-long series had a lot to do with this transition, even more so than George Russell. Every volume has the same explanation of chord-scale theory, and those books have been the introduction to jazz theory for millions of people.

    – Peter
    56 mins ago








  • 1





    @Peter -- that's a good point; Aebersold, the rise of jazz clinics, the institutionalization of jazz with the advent of jazz schools like Berklee pumping out players to spread chord-scale theory. All of this really seemed to take off in the '70s and '80s.

    – David Bowling
    41 mins ago














3












3








3








My understanding is before 1970, no Jazz players thought about modes. For certain, Charlie Parker, Colman Hawkins, Bud Powell, Art Tatum, Monk, etc never thought in modes.



Barry Harris shows how they did think, and it seems alot more simple and true to the form. Modes seem to me a projection of Western Academic ideas unto african american idioms, with little understanding or respect to the ideas behind those idioms. Basically a "takeover" of Jazz.



Please set me straight.










share|improve this question







New contributor




Charlie Webster is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












My understanding is before 1970, no Jazz players thought about modes. For certain, Charlie Parker, Colman Hawkins, Bud Powell, Art Tatum, Monk, etc never thought in modes.



Barry Harris shows how they did think, and it seems alot more simple and true to the form. Modes seem to me a projection of Western Academic ideas unto african american idioms, with little understanding or respect to the ideas behind those idioms. Basically a "takeover" of Jazz.



Please set me straight.







jazz modes






share|improve this question







New contributor




Charlie Webster is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question







New contributor




Charlie Webster is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question






New contributor




Charlie Webster is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 1 hour ago









Charlie WebsterCharlie Webster

161




161




New contributor




Charlie Webster is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





Charlie Webster is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






Charlie Webster is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








  • 3





    I think that George Russell introduced modes into jazz theory in the early '50s. Bill Evans, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, and others knew Russell, valued his work, and were inspired by it. People still teach and use other approaches to improvisation, e.g. triad-based, arpeggio-based, neighbor-tones for chromaticism. The commonly seen chord-scale theory is just one aspect of jazz improvisation that makes a good soundbite.

    – David Bowling
    1 hour ago








  • 1





    I think that Jamie Aebersold's play-a-long series had a lot to do with this transition, even more so than George Russell. Every volume has the same explanation of chord-scale theory, and those books have been the introduction to jazz theory for millions of people.

    – Peter
    56 mins ago








  • 1





    @Peter -- that's a good point; Aebersold, the rise of jazz clinics, the institutionalization of jazz with the advent of jazz schools like Berklee pumping out players to spread chord-scale theory. All of this really seemed to take off in the '70s and '80s.

    – David Bowling
    41 mins ago














  • 3





    I think that George Russell introduced modes into jazz theory in the early '50s. Bill Evans, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, and others knew Russell, valued his work, and were inspired by it. People still teach and use other approaches to improvisation, e.g. triad-based, arpeggio-based, neighbor-tones for chromaticism. The commonly seen chord-scale theory is just one aspect of jazz improvisation that makes a good soundbite.

    – David Bowling
    1 hour ago








  • 1





    I think that Jamie Aebersold's play-a-long series had a lot to do with this transition, even more so than George Russell. Every volume has the same explanation of chord-scale theory, and those books have been the introduction to jazz theory for millions of people.

    – Peter
    56 mins ago








  • 1





    @Peter -- that's a good point; Aebersold, the rise of jazz clinics, the institutionalization of jazz with the advent of jazz schools like Berklee pumping out players to spread chord-scale theory. All of this really seemed to take off in the '70s and '80s.

    – David Bowling
    41 mins ago








3




3





I think that George Russell introduced modes into jazz theory in the early '50s. Bill Evans, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, and others knew Russell, valued his work, and were inspired by it. People still teach and use other approaches to improvisation, e.g. triad-based, arpeggio-based, neighbor-tones for chromaticism. The commonly seen chord-scale theory is just one aspect of jazz improvisation that makes a good soundbite.

– David Bowling
1 hour ago







I think that George Russell introduced modes into jazz theory in the early '50s. Bill Evans, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, and others knew Russell, valued his work, and were inspired by it. People still teach and use other approaches to improvisation, e.g. triad-based, arpeggio-based, neighbor-tones for chromaticism. The commonly seen chord-scale theory is just one aspect of jazz improvisation that makes a good soundbite.

– David Bowling
1 hour ago






1




1





I think that Jamie Aebersold's play-a-long series had a lot to do with this transition, even more so than George Russell. Every volume has the same explanation of chord-scale theory, and those books have been the introduction to jazz theory for millions of people.

– Peter
56 mins ago







I think that Jamie Aebersold's play-a-long series had a lot to do with this transition, even more so than George Russell. Every volume has the same explanation of chord-scale theory, and those books have been the introduction to jazz theory for millions of people.

– Peter
56 mins ago






1




1





@Peter -- that's a good point; Aebersold, the rise of jazz clinics, the institutionalization of jazz with the advent of jazz schools like Berklee pumping out players to spread chord-scale theory. All of this really seemed to take off in the '70s and '80s.

– David Bowling
41 mins ago





@Peter -- that's a good point; Aebersold, the rise of jazz clinics, the institutionalization of jazz with the advent of jazz schools like Berklee pumping out players to spread chord-scale theory. All of this really seemed to take off in the '70s and '80s.

– David Bowling
41 mins ago










1 Answer
1






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oldest

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3















My understanding is before 1970, no Jazz players thought about modes.




This is incorrect, see this question: How does modal jazz use chord progressions?



A: Modes became of interest over time as a way to organize what pitches to use over certain chords and sounds. This is a naturally arising phenomenon when there are many sounds to consider and memorize what notes work over each sound. Chord scales are a convenient way of organizing what notes to play over what chords, and chord scales are inherently modes. Naturally, musicians began to play around with these modes because they offered a different way of looking at the same notes they already knew. There was no "takeover", unless jazz musicians were trying to "take over" jazz itself and expand its lexicon with new ideas.




Modes seem to me a projection of Western Academic ideas unto african american idioms, with little understanding or respect to the ideas behind those idioms. Basically a "takeover" of Jazz.




This is a projection that jazz somehow existed before ... well, before it existed. The part I highlighted is also in my estimation an egregiously bad projection that ideas somehow aren't allowed to (or simply can't) meld into one another, borrow back and forth, and so on. This is bad because this is precisely how Jazz came about. Jazz arose out of the musical traditions centered around New Orleans at the turn of the 20th century, which was a hot pot of everything you could imagine - namely military march music, funeral march music, dance music of the time, and music played in brothels. Remember, also, that New Orleans was a very important port city in the 1800s, meaning that much influence also came from the Caribbean and various Hispanic nations to the south. Improvisation is also nothing new even to European music: Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven were well known in their day for being able to improvise - and in the Renaissance era, improvising over a cantus firmus was an important tool for teaching counterpoint (i.e., composition). However, improvisation in the way we think of it today tends to come out of the Jazz, Blues, and Rock idioms that developed in 20th century America.






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    3















    My understanding is before 1970, no Jazz players thought about modes.




    This is incorrect, see this question: How does modal jazz use chord progressions?



    A: Modes became of interest over time as a way to organize what pitches to use over certain chords and sounds. This is a naturally arising phenomenon when there are many sounds to consider and memorize what notes work over each sound. Chord scales are a convenient way of organizing what notes to play over what chords, and chord scales are inherently modes. Naturally, musicians began to play around with these modes because they offered a different way of looking at the same notes they already knew. There was no "takeover", unless jazz musicians were trying to "take over" jazz itself and expand its lexicon with new ideas.




    Modes seem to me a projection of Western Academic ideas unto african american idioms, with little understanding or respect to the ideas behind those idioms. Basically a "takeover" of Jazz.




    This is a projection that jazz somehow existed before ... well, before it existed. The part I highlighted is also in my estimation an egregiously bad projection that ideas somehow aren't allowed to (or simply can't) meld into one another, borrow back and forth, and so on. This is bad because this is precisely how Jazz came about. Jazz arose out of the musical traditions centered around New Orleans at the turn of the 20th century, which was a hot pot of everything you could imagine - namely military march music, funeral march music, dance music of the time, and music played in brothels. Remember, also, that New Orleans was a very important port city in the 1800s, meaning that much influence also came from the Caribbean and various Hispanic nations to the south. Improvisation is also nothing new even to European music: Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven were well known in their day for being able to improvise - and in the Renaissance era, improvising over a cantus firmus was an important tool for teaching counterpoint (i.e., composition). However, improvisation in the way we think of it today tends to come out of the Jazz, Blues, and Rock idioms that developed in 20th century America.






    share|improve this answer




























      3















      My understanding is before 1970, no Jazz players thought about modes.




      This is incorrect, see this question: How does modal jazz use chord progressions?



      A: Modes became of interest over time as a way to organize what pitches to use over certain chords and sounds. This is a naturally arising phenomenon when there are many sounds to consider and memorize what notes work over each sound. Chord scales are a convenient way of organizing what notes to play over what chords, and chord scales are inherently modes. Naturally, musicians began to play around with these modes because they offered a different way of looking at the same notes they already knew. There was no "takeover", unless jazz musicians were trying to "take over" jazz itself and expand its lexicon with new ideas.




      Modes seem to me a projection of Western Academic ideas unto african american idioms, with little understanding or respect to the ideas behind those idioms. Basically a "takeover" of Jazz.




      This is a projection that jazz somehow existed before ... well, before it existed. The part I highlighted is also in my estimation an egregiously bad projection that ideas somehow aren't allowed to (or simply can't) meld into one another, borrow back and forth, and so on. This is bad because this is precisely how Jazz came about. Jazz arose out of the musical traditions centered around New Orleans at the turn of the 20th century, which was a hot pot of everything you could imagine - namely military march music, funeral march music, dance music of the time, and music played in brothels. Remember, also, that New Orleans was a very important port city in the 1800s, meaning that much influence also came from the Caribbean and various Hispanic nations to the south. Improvisation is also nothing new even to European music: Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven were well known in their day for being able to improvise - and in the Renaissance era, improvising over a cantus firmus was an important tool for teaching counterpoint (i.e., composition). However, improvisation in the way we think of it today tends to come out of the Jazz, Blues, and Rock idioms that developed in 20th century America.






      share|improve this answer


























        3












        3








        3








        My understanding is before 1970, no Jazz players thought about modes.




        This is incorrect, see this question: How does modal jazz use chord progressions?



        A: Modes became of interest over time as a way to organize what pitches to use over certain chords and sounds. This is a naturally arising phenomenon when there are many sounds to consider and memorize what notes work over each sound. Chord scales are a convenient way of organizing what notes to play over what chords, and chord scales are inherently modes. Naturally, musicians began to play around with these modes because they offered a different way of looking at the same notes they already knew. There was no "takeover", unless jazz musicians were trying to "take over" jazz itself and expand its lexicon with new ideas.




        Modes seem to me a projection of Western Academic ideas unto african american idioms, with little understanding or respect to the ideas behind those idioms. Basically a "takeover" of Jazz.




        This is a projection that jazz somehow existed before ... well, before it existed. The part I highlighted is also in my estimation an egregiously bad projection that ideas somehow aren't allowed to (or simply can't) meld into one another, borrow back and forth, and so on. This is bad because this is precisely how Jazz came about. Jazz arose out of the musical traditions centered around New Orleans at the turn of the 20th century, which was a hot pot of everything you could imagine - namely military march music, funeral march music, dance music of the time, and music played in brothels. Remember, also, that New Orleans was a very important port city in the 1800s, meaning that much influence also came from the Caribbean and various Hispanic nations to the south. Improvisation is also nothing new even to European music: Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven were well known in their day for being able to improvise - and in the Renaissance era, improvising over a cantus firmus was an important tool for teaching counterpoint (i.e., composition). However, improvisation in the way we think of it today tends to come out of the Jazz, Blues, and Rock idioms that developed in 20th century America.






        share|improve this answer














        My understanding is before 1970, no Jazz players thought about modes.




        This is incorrect, see this question: How does modal jazz use chord progressions?



        A: Modes became of interest over time as a way to organize what pitches to use over certain chords and sounds. This is a naturally arising phenomenon when there are many sounds to consider and memorize what notes work over each sound. Chord scales are a convenient way of organizing what notes to play over what chords, and chord scales are inherently modes. Naturally, musicians began to play around with these modes because they offered a different way of looking at the same notes they already knew. There was no "takeover", unless jazz musicians were trying to "take over" jazz itself and expand its lexicon with new ideas.




        Modes seem to me a projection of Western Academic ideas unto african american idioms, with little understanding or respect to the ideas behind those idioms. Basically a "takeover" of Jazz.




        This is a projection that jazz somehow existed before ... well, before it existed. The part I highlighted is also in my estimation an egregiously bad projection that ideas somehow aren't allowed to (or simply can't) meld into one another, borrow back and forth, and so on. This is bad because this is precisely how Jazz came about. Jazz arose out of the musical traditions centered around New Orleans at the turn of the 20th century, which was a hot pot of everything you could imagine - namely military march music, funeral march music, dance music of the time, and music played in brothels. Remember, also, that New Orleans was a very important port city in the 1800s, meaning that much influence also came from the Caribbean and various Hispanic nations to the south. Improvisation is also nothing new even to European music: Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven were well known in their day for being able to improvise - and in the Renaissance era, improvising over a cantus firmus was an important tool for teaching counterpoint (i.e., composition). However, improvisation in the way we think of it today tends to come out of the Jazz, Blues, and Rock idioms that developed in 20th century America.







        share|improve this answer












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