Why is it that Bernie Sanders is always called a “socialist”?Why is communism considered as evil (like...
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Why is it that Bernie Sanders is always called a "socialist"?
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Why is it that Bernie Sanders is always called a “socialist”?
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As a German I really don't get calling Bernie Sanders a socialist. In every country in Europe he would be a social democrat at best, but somehow in the USA he's a "socialist" and "communist" you should be afraid of.
Examples of the media referring to Sanders as a socialist: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
united-states socialism bernie-sanders
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As a German I really don't get calling Bernie Sanders a socialist. In every country in Europe he would be a social democrat at best, but somehow in the USA he's a "socialist" and "communist" you should be afraid of.
Examples of the media referring to Sanders as a socialist: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
united-states socialism bernie-sanders
New contributor
28
It might be helpful not to force edit an American perspective ("democratic socialism" = "socialism") into OP's question, when the OP is asking from a German point of view, especially when OP makes a distinction between "social democrat" and "'socialist' and 'communist'."
– BurnsBA
Feb 22 at 19:02
8
Perhaps you could explain, for the benefit of Americans and other non-Europeans, exactly how a social democrat differs from a socialist? When I do a search, the first thing that pops up is the dictionary definition: "a supporter or advocate of a socialist system of government achieved by democratic means". So it would seem that social democrats are simply a subset of socialists, no?
– jamesqf
2 days ago
13
@jamesqf Wikipedia definition: "Social democracy [..] supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and a capitalist economy." Early social democrats tried to achieve socialism by working within the system, but they eventually abandoned the goal and accepted market economy.
– Jouni Sirén
2 days ago
5
@Jouni Sirén: Yes, so that makes social democrats a variety of socialist, no? I don't, incidentally, see why a market economy is incompatibe with socialism: it's simply a more efficient method of arranging an economy than Communist-style central planning.
– jamesqf
yesterday
9
@jamesqf In the European usage, socialism is defined by the intent to replace market economy with socialist economy. If someone accepts private ownership of the means of production, they are not socialist in this sense.
– Jouni Sirén
yesterday
|
show 16 more comments
As a German I really don't get calling Bernie Sanders a socialist. In every country in Europe he would be a social democrat at best, but somehow in the USA he's a "socialist" and "communist" you should be afraid of.
Examples of the media referring to Sanders as a socialist: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
united-states socialism bernie-sanders
New contributor
As a German I really don't get calling Bernie Sanders a socialist. In every country in Europe he would be a social democrat at best, but somehow in the USA he's a "socialist" and "communist" you should be afraid of.
Examples of the media referring to Sanders as a socialist: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
united-states socialism bernie-sanders
united-states socialism bernie-sanders
New contributor
New contributor
edited 2 days ago
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28
It might be helpful not to force edit an American perspective ("democratic socialism" = "socialism") into OP's question, when the OP is asking from a German point of view, especially when OP makes a distinction between "social democrat" and "'socialist' and 'communist'."
– BurnsBA
Feb 22 at 19:02
8
Perhaps you could explain, for the benefit of Americans and other non-Europeans, exactly how a social democrat differs from a socialist? When I do a search, the first thing that pops up is the dictionary definition: "a supporter or advocate of a socialist system of government achieved by democratic means". So it would seem that social democrats are simply a subset of socialists, no?
– jamesqf
2 days ago
13
@jamesqf Wikipedia definition: "Social democracy [..] supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and a capitalist economy." Early social democrats tried to achieve socialism by working within the system, but they eventually abandoned the goal and accepted market economy.
– Jouni Sirén
2 days ago
5
@Jouni Sirén: Yes, so that makes social democrats a variety of socialist, no? I don't, incidentally, see why a market economy is incompatibe with socialism: it's simply a more efficient method of arranging an economy than Communist-style central planning.
– jamesqf
yesterday
9
@jamesqf In the European usage, socialism is defined by the intent to replace market economy with socialist economy. If someone accepts private ownership of the means of production, they are not socialist in this sense.
– Jouni Sirén
yesterday
|
show 16 more comments
28
It might be helpful not to force edit an American perspective ("democratic socialism" = "socialism") into OP's question, when the OP is asking from a German point of view, especially when OP makes a distinction between "social democrat" and "'socialist' and 'communist'."
– BurnsBA
Feb 22 at 19:02
8
Perhaps you could explain, for the benefit of Americans and other non-Europeans, exactly how a social democrat differs from a socialist? When I do a search, the first thing that pops up is the dictionary definition: "a supporter or advocate of a socialist system of government achieved by democratic means". So it would seem that social democrats are simply a subset of socialists, no?
– jamesqf
2 days ago
13
@jamesqf Wikipedia definition: "Social democracy [..] supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and a capitalist economy." Early social democrats tried to achieve socialism by working within the system, but they eventually abandoned the goal and accepted market economy.
– Jouni Sirén
2 days ago
5
@Jouni Sirén: Yes, so that makes social democrats a variety of socialist, no? I don't, incidentally, see why a market economy is incompatibe with socialism: it's simply a more efficient method of arranging an economy than Communist-style central planning.
– jamesqf
yesterday
9
@jamesqf In the European usage, socialism is defined by the intent to replace market economy with socialist economy. If someone accepts private ownership of the means of production, they are not socialist in this sense.
– Jouni Sirén
yesterday
28
28
It might be helpful not to force edit an American perspective ("democratic socialism" = "socialism") into OP's question, when the OP is asking from a German point of view, especially when OP makes a distinction between "social democrat" and "'socialist' and 'communist'."
– BurnsBA
Feb 22 at 19:02
It might be helpful not to force edit an American perspective ("democratic socialism" = "socialism") into OP's question, when the OP is asking from a German point of view, especially when OP makes a distinction between "social democrat" and "'socialist' and 'communist'."
– BurnsBA
Feb 22 at 19:02
8
8
Perhaps you could explain, for the benefit of Americans and other non-Europeans, exactly how a social democrat differs from a socialist? When I do a search, the first thing that pops up is the dictionary definition: "a supporter or advocate of a socialist system of government achieved by democratic means". So it would seem that social democrats are simply a subset of socialists, no?
– jamesqf
2 days ago
Perhaps you could explain, for the benefit of Americans and other non-Europeans, exactly how a social democrat differs from a socialist? When I do a search, the first thing that pops up is the dictionary definition: "a supporter or advocate of a socialist system of government achieved by democratic means". So it would seem that social democrats are simply a subset of socialists, no?
– jamesqf
2 days ago
13
13
@jamesqf Wikipedia definition: "Social democracy [..] supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and a capitalist economy." Early social democrats tried to achieve socialism by working within the system, but they eventually abandoned the goal and accepted market economy.
– Jouni Sirén
2 days ago
@jamesqf Wikipedia definition: "Social democracy [..] supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and a capitalist economy." Early social democrats tried to achieve socialism by working within the system, but they eventually abandoned the goal and accepted market economy.
– Jouni Sirén
2 days ago
5
5
@Jouni Sirén: Yes, so that makes social democrats a variety of socialist, no? I don't, incidentally, see why a market economy is incompatibe with socialism: it's simply a more efficient method of arranging an economy than Communist-style central planning.
– jamesqf
yesterday
@Jouni Sirén: Yes, so that makes social democrats a variety of socialist, no? I don't, incidentally, see why a market economy is incompatibe with socialism: it's simply a more efficient method of arranging an economy than Communist-style central planning.
– jamesqf
yesterday
9
9
@jamesqf In the European usage, socialism is defined by the intent to replace market economy with socialist economy. If someone accepts private ownership of the means of production, they are not socialist in this sense.
– Jouni Sirén
yesterday
@jamesqf In the European usage, socialism is defined by the intent to replace market economy with socialist economy. If someone accepts private ownership of the means of production, they are not socialist in this sense.
– Jouni Sirén
yesterday
|
show 16 more comments
9 Answers
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oldest
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Basically Bernie Sanders used the wrong term and it stuck. For some unfathomable reason, he refers to himself as a socialist while espousing policies that are clearly social Democrat in line with most European states. He has done himself no favors. If he had said social democrat, he wouldn't have received as much McCarthy-ist style attacks. He is definitely espousing a European style model rather than a Venezuelan style model. Because of his mistake, the term's meaning has changed, and now others like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are calling themselves socialists too even though they're not.
The DSA themselves also describe themselves in terms that sound a lot more like social democracy than democratic socialism.
Bernie's key policy positions are all Medicare For All, lowering prescription drug prices, a jobs program to shift America's energy production rapidly towards green energy, and tuition free public colleges. I could source this, but he says it in literally every speech or interview he's ever done, so that would be a bit redundant!
Bernie Sanders gave a great interview in 2006 with Democracy Now where he explained his version of socialism. You can compare that with the DSA position linked above.
8
Did Saunders first use the term before any opponents called hm that? Sources for either would help.
– Mark
Feb 22 at 15:59
39
I think calling his use strictly wrong is overstating the matter. Here's wikipedia's (supported by sources) definition of socialism: "a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole" [emphasis mine]. Expanded banking, environmental, & healthcare regulation, increased government spending and welfare, these are all things that could be construed to be at least partially "socialism" under this definition.
– mbrig
Feb 22 at 17:01
7
@mbrig The current Wikipedia article does not have that definition, and I can't find it in the recent revision history either.
– Jouni Sirén
Feb 23 at 1:54
13
Also note that many socialist or communist nations, even tyrannical authoritarian ones, have always slapped "Democratic", "Republic", or "People" in their name (e.g. "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" (North Korea), "People's Republic of China", "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)"). To many right-wing Americans, "democratic socialism" just means "socialism with an extra dash of deception by pretending to be democratic". The general rightwing feeling being, "if you have to convince me you're democratic by adding it into your name, you probably aren't."
– Jamin Grey
Feb 23 at 3:05
7
@JouniSirén ah my bad, that's the definition google is popping up in its little info box, which they usually crib from wikipedia, but in this case, seems to be some kind of dictionary they aren't linking. My apologies
– mbrig
2 days ago
|
show 5 more comments
Why is it that Bernie Sanders always called a "socialist"?
I think getting a quick history lesson to get some context might help explain how "socialist" is used in US media.
First, I want to highlight the long history of anti-(anti-capitalism); second, show how anything anti-capitalism is generally conflated; and third, how this is the case in the present day.
Discussing communism might seem like a detour, but bear with me for a moment. I'll start with The (first) Red Scare (1917-1920):
Political scientist, and former member of the Communist Party Murray B. Levin wrote that the Red Scare was "a nationwide anti-radical hysteria provoked by a mounting fear and anxiety that a Bolshevik revolution in America was imminent—a revolution that would change Church, home, marriage, civility, and the American way of Life".
Around the time of the second world war McCarthyism (~ second red scare) took hold:
During the McCarthy era, hundreds of Americans were accused of being communists or communist sympathizers; they became the subject of aggressive investigations and questioning before government or private industry panels, committees and agencies.
You might notice that the above two quotes only reference communism. I'll discuss this a bit more below, but I want to continue the walk through history with a quote from wiki page on the history of socialism in the United States:
COINTELPRO [(1956–1971)] was a series of covert and at times illegal[189] projects conducted by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) aimed at surveying, infiltrating, discrediting and disrupting domestic political organizations[190] FBI records show that 85% of COINTELPRO resources targeted groups and individuals that the FBI deemed "subversive",[191] including communist and socialist organizations; ...
The point is, there's a long history in the US of government responses to anti-capitalist movements, as these are generally not viewed favorably. There's a lot more that could be said (labor movements; class; race & racism; gender, to name a few related issues), but that's a rough overview.
The second point I wanted to address was the conflation of anti-capitalist terms. I pointed out that two of the quotes only mentioned communism, but actually all of the above wiki pages can be found on the history of socialism in the US wiki page. I wanted to bring this up to point out that the government response conflates anti-capitalist movements. The same wiki page notes that
The widespread use of the word "socialism" as a political epithet against the Obama government by its opponents caused National Director Frank Llewellyn to declare that "over the past 12 months, the Democratic Socialists of America has received more media attention than it has over the past 12 years"
Even though the Obama administration and most leftists agreed that his administration was not socialist. The source for this claim is a Chicago Tribune article, which goes on to say:
To most, socialist policies are synonymous with any expansion in government spending (although many capitalist nations funnel more of their gross domestic product through the public sector than the U.S. does). source
Here's a foxnews article which defines socialism as communism, (though I think the author was trying to distinguish the two):
There was a time in American politics when the term "socialism" conjured up images of the Cold War, the U.S.S.R, Joseph Stalin and Karl Marx, nuclear threats, government domination of private industry and gulags. For most Americans who came of age during the height of the Cold War, who remember being taught to hide under their desks at school, socialism – like communism – has long been a dirty word. source
In summary, in the United States, pro-capitalism is the majority view (to varying degrees; this means different things to different people). That is, people endorsing communism, socialism, and democratic socialism are a small minority (i.e., as a ruling system of government). The distinction between communism, socialism, and democratic socialism is generally lost on anyone outside specific academic groups, and lost on the general a-politic public. It is only when you venture in to certain leftist groups that the distinction between these groups is recognized. (And maybe certain non-leftist groups too. The point is, a small minority.)
Third, to go back to the original question:
Why is it that Bernie Sanders always called a "socialist"?
You're right that Sanders is not a socialist. But he's aware of the US sentiment of the term, as I outlined above. For example, an article on a Sanders speech :
Throughout the decades, he [Sanders] argued, "socialist" has been a term conservatives deployed when Democrats do something popular:
Almost everything [Roosevelt] proposed was called "socialist." I thought I would mention that just in passing. Social Security, which transformed life for the elderly in this country, was defined by his opponents as "socialist." The concept of the "minimum wage"—that workers had to be paid at least a certain amount of money for their labor—was seen as a radical intrusion into the marketplace and was described as "socialist."
He has embraced this view of himself as someone that supports progressive social policies. Though he does tend to describe himself as "social democratic" when discussing the topic, and seems to be aware of the different in terms:
Sanders: Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader in the Senate, often criticizes President Obama, incorrectly, for trying to push "European-style socialism," and McConnell says the American people don’t want it. First of all, of course, Obama is not trying to push European-style socialism. Second of all, I happen to believe that, if the American people understood the significant accomplishments that have taken place under social-democratic governments, democratic-socialist governments, labor governments throughout Europe, they would be shocked to know about those accomplishments. One of the goals of this campaign is to advance that understanding… source
In summary, Sanders is called "socialist" because the US media in general describes policies that provide some kind of assistance (for example, food aid or health care) as socialist. This is just the current nature of the discussion at the national level. This is a rather US centric (i.e., isolated) understanding of the term "socialist" which is more properly understood in countries to the left of the United States.
Sanders doesn't seem to object to the term if it is applied to him, but when discussing his views will refer to himself as "democratic socialist" instead of "socialist." And just as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is not democratic, neither is "democratic socialist" the same thing as "socialist." But as detailed above, this distinction is rarely made clear in US media.
15
I downvoted for the simple reason that this is a needlessly longwinded answer that fails to point out Bernie Sanders is called a socialist because he calls himself a socialist. The fact that he isn't a socialist according to several previously well understood definitions doesn't negate the fact that this term is used to describe himself because he uses it.
– Joe
Feb 22 at 16:45
14
@Joe, I think you are confusing 1) when he doesn't make a pedantic argument against the "socialist" label and 2) how he describes himself as "democrat socialist". For example, Sanders saying (1) "The next time you hear me attacked as a socialist" and (2) "what democratic socialism means to me" both in this MSNBC article. I tried to make this point in my answer, but perhaps you have a suggestion for how I can clarify. msnbc.com/msnbc/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism
– BurnsBA
Feb 22 at 17:03
13
@Joe, that's beyond pedantic, and demonstrably false. If you call yourself an anti-capitalist, it doesn't mean folk should conflate you as a capitalist because anti-capitalist has "capitalist" in the name. As an American, it really bums me out that we're generally so ignorant of semantics and actual meanings in things. Bernie could call himself anything and the right would decry him as a socialist due to his platform. And no, I'm not a leftist. I'm simply an American dude who's tired of ignorant rhetoric in my country's politics.
– Jesse Williams
Feb 22 at 20:08
13
And the fact that you found this answer too "long winded" is exactly WHY it's so tiresome talking to most other Americans about politics. Nobody wants foundational information, just an echo chamber that tells them they are right all the time.
– Jesse Williams
Feb 22 at 20:09
6
@Joe isn't fox mainstream then?
– Mark
2 days ago
|
show 12 more comments
It seems likely that people call him a socialist because he's self-identified as one on multiple occasions.
and
When he first won election to the House in 1990, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) embraced his political identity. "I am a socialist and everyone knows that," Sanders said, responding to an ad that tried to link him to the regime of Fidel Castro.
Washington Post: Bernie Sanders is an avowed socialist. 52 percent of Democrats are OK with that.
etc.
That's a relevant answer, but even Sanders doesn't mean what Europeans mean when they say 'socialist'. His platform is social democratic by European standards. The word 'socialist' is simply a 'false friend'.
– henning
14 hours ago
3
@henning - If you go around calling yourself a socialist, people will call you one.
– Valorum
13 hours ago
I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying this word means something else in Europe than in the US, hence OP's confusion. When Americans say they drive a truck, they don't necessarily mean a 7 t vehicle with twin tires.
– henning
10 hours ago
add a comment |
Folks who support the view that Sanders is actually socialist frequently point to this quote from him way back in 1987:
Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production, it
means decentralization, it means involving people in their work.
Rather than having bosses and workers it means having democratic
control over the factories and shops to as great a degree as you can.
Sanders continues to demonstrate admiration for Eugene V. Debs, the most prominent Socialist candidate in the history of the United States.
But yes, if we focus on his major policy proposals and imagine Sanders in a multiparty parliamentary democracy, the label "Social Democrat" would be a better fit.
2
Interesting quote, but do folks actually frequently refer to his 1987 quote?
– gerrit
yesterday
@gerrit I noticed this quote all over non-public Facebook comments the day he announced. If I search "Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production" on google I find 167 hits, and on the top page at least, they all are about Bernie Sanders.
– Brian Z
20 hours ago
3
I would consider 167 Google hits to be really a rather small number.
– gerrit
18 hours ago
If he said that, he's grossly wrong: democracy doesn't mean that in any dictionary. Perhaps the quotation is wrong, and that could explain its low hit number: in some circles, socialism may mean this. But what he's really describing is Anarcho-syndicalism.
– Zeus
5 hours ago
add a comment |
I think there's an important distinction to be made in the examples you noted.
The left-of-center news outlets actually make an effort to call him by his chosen name of "Democratic Socialist."
The Hill (left-center)
The Nation (left)
It's the right-wing sources that conflate the terminology.
Daily Mail (right, questionable source)
Newsmax (right)
Fox News (right)
(Of course, by European standard, all of these sources would probably be considered a little more to the right than the US ranks them.)
The right-wing likes to use the word socialism as a pejorative, capitalizing on how little Americans know about socialism in the non-pejorative sense, and how much disinformation and conflations has been made about it in the past. If you live in the US, go ahead, try asking random people you know what socialism is. You'll probably get some really funny answers, like "Putin is a socialist" as I do when the topic comes up.
add a comment |
The meaning of the word socialist changes by country and by era. Social democratic is especially crucial in Germany because of the national-socialist phenomenon. The word is a popular ideal which was abused by despots and which lost favor after the 80's, mostly for it's use by despots, it's vagueness and lack of concencus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_communist_states_and_socialist_states
Socialism in the 20th century started out as an ideal term for debate of human rights of expression, minimum wage, trade unions, in the 1920s.
The 1920's ideal is how I was introduced to the concept of socialism in philosophy and history, and same goes for Bernie Sanders too, probably.
Socialism changes a lot by decade and Bernie probably associates socialism with the ideals of his father's generation from the 30's, rather than the recent historical corruptions of socialism used by Venezuela, Germany, Burma, Romania, Lybia and others.
Usage frequency of various political terms according to Googgle Ngram Search:
1
How precisely is the ngram supporting any of the argument you gave? Not that I assume that it would be wrong; I just feel the diagram is just a show-off that adds no substantial information.
– antipattern
2 days ago
3
I don't understand this answer. Venezuela and Germany?
– gerrit
yesterday
It shows the meaning of the word socialist! the political philosophical word of the 1920's and 30's was very prevalent around in 1938 as it was corrupted by the NAZIs, and then it peaked in the middle of the cold war, so it demonstrates why a german would see him as a "social democrat at best". Venezuela and Germany have both had repressive socialist autocracies relatively recently, as has Cuba, Russia, China, and many others. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
– com.prehensible
20 hours ago
add a comment |
During the time he was mayor of Burlington, Vermont, Bernie Sanders referred to himself as a socialist, and was referred to that way in the press. (source: Wikipedia). In his youth, he had been a member of the Young Socialists of America. To my knowledge, that group was socialist, not social democrat, or democratic socialist.
His political thinking may have evolved over the decades, or he may have found a new way to package the same ideas. However, it remains true that the label socialist is one that he took on himself and not one that was pinned on him by detractors.
When he describes his overall vision today, he often cites the model of Nordic Socialism as the kind of society he is aiming for. However, it's important to realize that the Scandinavian countries are not socialist, and their leaderships are quite insistent about this. Most of industry remains under private ownership, albeit heavily regulated.
Tax rates on companies are comparable to similar rates in the USA, considered a capitalist economy. So if that is what he is really aiming for, it would be appropriate to refer to him as something other than a "Democratic Socialist". It's unclear exactly what is meant by Democratic Socialism in any event. It depends on who you ask.
"Most of industry remains under private ownership, albeit heavily regulated." That statement is why many Americans laugh when Europeans claim they aren't socialist. Just because the government "lets" people own companies, the government is still essentially dictating how the companies operate through the heavy regulation. There's not a lot of difference between that and the government outright controlling the companies. It's like a parent who "gives" their teenage child a car but reserves the right to take the car away from them at any time. IOW, the child doesn't really own the car.
– Dunk
10 hours ago
add a comment |
American political taxonomy is a bit different from that of other countries, so it should come as no surprise that you're puzzled.
The primary axis for American political discussion is the degree of power wielded by the central (Federal) government. The (rather ill-defined) central position is shared by Democrats and Republicans, and advancing to the Left the major divisions are: Liberal/Democrat (the two are often interchangeable), Socialist, and Communist. While Europeans have a larger, more nuanced, list of variations, the US 2-party system has pretty well subsumed all of the European distinctions into Liberal/Democrat or Socialist. Within the US, socialism is generally seen as a system which gives enormous power to the central government without the totalitarian flavor of Communism. Consequently, for Bernie to identify himself as socialist simply means that he has advocated a greater role for the Federal government than is currently accepted by the Democratic party. Within the usual usage of the terms, he could have chosen either ultra-liberal or socialist. He picked socialist. Bernie made his political debut as mayor of Burlington, Vt in 1981, and it was at that time that he described himself as socialist, and the term was picked up by the newspapers. Given that these were the Reagan years, this did help to give him a well-defined political identity. To the amazement and relief of the city, he was apparently a good mayor, and did not let ideology get in the way of running the city. The relief was not shared by the Republican and Democratic leaders in Burlington, who were unable to get him out until he chose to run for the House of Representatives.
At about the same time, the US (including Vermont) went through a condominium conversion boom/bust cycle, and the rise of awareness of genital Herpes. This gave rise to the Burlington political joke:
Q - Which one of the following items does not belong on this list?
A) Gonorrhea B) Bernie Sanders C) Herpes D) A condo in St. Albans
A - Gonorrhea. You can get rid of Gonorrhea.
add a comment |
The definition of socialism is
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
Bernie Sanders wants free healthcare and free college, which means it is run by the government. When the government is providing the services of health and education, that is socialism. In the above definition, I assume goods also means "goods and services".
22
Public goods can be provisioned without the government owning the means of production. "Free college" and "free healthcare" proposals typically consist of the government paying for things on behalf of the consumer, not the federal government owning every college and hospital in America.
– Joe
Feb 22 at 18:31
13
I didn't know that most industrialized countries (which provide some form of free healthcare and free education) are socialist countries. Please call Theresa May and tell her that she leads a socialist government. :-)
– Martin Schröder
Feb 22 at 19:52
17
Why is free college socialism and free K-12 school not? Hmm....
– Geobits
Feb 22 at 21:12
4
In the US (or everywhere?) most of the "means of producing" military safety are owned by the government
– Hagen von Eitzen
Feb 22 at 21:44
13
This answer is fallacious. Jazz is defined as music characterized by polyphony, syncopation, and improvization. Beethoven's music contains these elements, therefore Beethoven is a jazz composer. Silly.
– barbecue
Feb 22 at 23:50
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Basically Bernie Sanders used the wrong term and it stuck. For some unfathomable reason, he refers to himself as a socialist while espousing policies that are clearly social Democrat in line with most European states. He has done himself no favors. If he had said social democrat, he wouldn't have received as much McCarthy-ist style attacks. He is definitely espousing a European style model rather than a Venezuelan style model. Because of his mistake, the term's meaning has changed, and now others like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are calling themselves socialists too even though they're not.
The DSA themselves also describe themselves in terms that sound a lot more like social democracy than democratic socialism.
Bernie's key policy positions are all Medicare For All, lowering prescription drug prices, a jobs program to shift America's energy production rapidly towards green energy, and tuition free public colleges. I could source this, but he says it in literally every speech or interview he's ever done, so that would be a bit redundant!
Bernie Sanders gave a great interview in 2006 with Democracy Now where he explained his version of socialism. You can compare that with the DSA position linked above.
8
Did Saunders first use the term before any opponents called hm that? Sources for either would help.
– Mark
Feb 22 at 15:59
39
I think calling his use strictly wrong is overstating the matter. Here's wikipedia's (supported by sources) definition of socialism: "a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole" [emphasis mine]. Expanded banking, environmental, & healthcare regulation, increased government spending and welfare, these are all things that could be construed to be at least partially "socialism" under this definition.
– mbrig
Feb 22 at 17:01
7
@mbrig The current Wikipedia article does not have that definition, and I can't find it in the recent revision history either.
– Jouni Sirén
Feb 23 at 1:54
13
Also note that many socialist or communist nations, even tyrannical authoritarian ones, have always slapped "Democratic", "Republic", or "People" in their name (e.g. "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" (North Korea), "People's Republic of China", "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)"). To many right-wing Americans, "democratic socialism" just means "socialism with an extra dash of deception by pretending to be democratic". The general rightwing feeling being, "if you have to convince me you're democratic by adding it into your name, you probably aren't."
– Jamin Grey
Feb 23 at 3:05
7
@JouniSirén ah my bad, that's the definition google is popping up in its little info box, which they usually crib from wikipedia, but in this case, seems to be some kind of dictionary they aren't linking. My apologies
– mbrig
2 days ago
|
show 5 more comments
Basically Bernie Sanders used the wrong term and it stuck. For some unfathomable reason, he refers to himself as a socialist while espousing policies that are clearly social Democrat in line with most European states. He has done himself no favors. If he had said social democrat, he wouldn't have received as much McCarthy-ist style attacks. He is definitely espousing a European style model rather than a Venezuelan style model. Because of his mistake, the term's meaning has changed, and now others like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are calling themselves socialists too even though they're not.
The DSA themselves also describe themselves in terms that sound a lot more like social democracy than democratic socialism.
Bernie's key policy positions are all Medicare For All, lowering prescription drug prices, a jobs program to shift America's energy production rapidly towards green energy, and tuition free public colleges. I could source this, but he says it in literally every speech or interview he's ever done, so that would be a bit redundant!
Bernie Sanders gave a great interview in 2006 with Democracy Now where he explained his version of socialism. You can compare that with the DSA position linked above.
8
Did Saunders first use the term before any opponents called hm that? Sources for either would help.
– Mark
Feb 22 at 15:59
39
I think calling his use strictly wrong is overstating the matter. Here's wikipedia's (supported by sources) definition of socialism: "a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole" [emphasis mine]. Expanded banking, environmental, & healthcare regulation, increased government spending and welfare, these are all things that could be construed to be at least partially "socialism" under this definition.
– mbrig
Feb 22 at 17:01
7
@mbrig The current Wikipedia article does not have that definition, and I can't find it in the recent revision history either.
– Jouni Sirén
Feb 23 at 1:54
13
Also note that many socialist or communist nations, even tyrannical authoritarian ones, have always slapped "Democratic", "Republic", or "People" in their name (e.g. "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" (North Korea), "People's Republic of China", "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)"). To many right-wing Americans, "democratic socialism" just means "socialism with an extra dash of deception by pretending to be democratic". The general rightwing feeling being, "if you have to convince me you're democratic by adding it into your name, you probably aren't."
– Jamin Grey
Feb 23 at 3:05
7
@JouniSirén ah my bad, that's the definition google is popping up in its little info box, which they usually crib from wikipedia, but in this case, seems to be some kind of dictionary they aren't linking. My apologies
– mbrig
2 days ago
|
show 5 more comments
Basically Bernie Sanders used the wrong term and it stuck. For some unfathomable reason, he refers to himself as a socialist while espousing policies that are clearly social Democrat in line with most European states. He has done himself no favors. If he had said social democrat, he wouldn't have received as much McCarthy-ist style attacks. He is definitely espousing a European style model rather than a Venezuelan style model. Because of his mistake, the term's meaning has changed, and now others like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are calling themselves socialists too even though they're not.
The DSA themselves also describe themselves in terms that sound a lot more like social democracy than democratic socialism.
Bernie's key policy positions are all Medicare For All, lowering prescription drug prices, a jobs program to shift America's energy production rapidly towards green energy, and tuition free public colleges. I could source this, but he says it in literally every speech or interview he's ever done, so that would be a bit redundant!
Bernie Sanders gave a great interview in 2006 with Democracy Now where he explained his version of socialism. You can compare that with the DSA position linked above.
Basically Bernie Sanders used the wrong term and it stuck. For some unfathomable reason, he refers to himself as a socialist while espousing policies that are clearly social Democrat in line with most European states. He has done himself no favors. If he had said social democrat, he wouldn't have received as much McCarthy-ist style attacks. He is definitely espousing a European style model rather than a Venezuelan style model. Because of his mistake, the term's meaning has changed, and now others like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are calling themselves socialists too even though they're not.
The DSA themselves also describe themselves in terms that sound a lot more like social democracy than democratic socialism.
Bernie's key policy positions are all Medicare For All, lowering prescription drug prices, a jobs program to shift America's energy production rapidly towards green energy, and tuition free public colleges. I could source this, but he says it in literally every speech or interview he's ever done, so that would be a bit redundant!
Bernie Sanders gave a great interview in 2006 with Democracy Now where he explained his version of socialism. You can compare that with the DSA position linked above.
edited Feb 22 at 18:19
Carson
942621
942621
answered Feb 22 at 10:43
IcarianIcarian
2,5802619
2,5802619
8
Did Saunders first use the term before any opponents called hm that? Sources for either would help.
– Mark
Feb 22 at 15:59
39
I think calling his use strictly wrong is overstating the matter. Here's wikipedia's (supported by sources) definition of socialism: "a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole" [emphasis mine]. Expanded banking, environmental, & healthcare regulation, increased government spending and welfare, these are all things that could be construed to be at least partially "socialism" under this definition.
– mbrig
Feb 22 at 17:01
7
@mbrig The current Wikipedia article does not have that definition, and I can't find it in the recent revision history either.
– Jouni Sirén
Feb 23 at 1:54
13
Also note that many socialist or communist nations, even tyrannical authoritarian ones, have always slapped "Democratic", "Republic", or "People" in their name (e.g. "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" (North Korea), "People's Republic of China", "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)"). To many right-wing Americans, "democratic socialism" just means "socialism with an extra dash of deception by pretending to be democratic". The general rightwing feeling being, "if you have to convince me you're democratic by adding it into your name, you probably aren't."
– Jamin Grey
Feb 23 at 3:05
7
@JouniSirén ah my bad, that's the definition google is popping up in its little info box, which they usually crib from wikipedia, but in this case, seems to be some kind of dictionary they aren't linking. My apologies
– mbrig
2 days ago
|
show 5 more comments
8
Did Saunders first use the term before any opponents called hm that? Sources for either would help.
– Mark
Feb 22 at 15:59
39
I think calling his use strictly wrong is overstating the matter. Here's wikipedia's (supported by sources) definition of socialism: "a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole" [emphasis mine]. Expanded banking, environmental, & healthcare regulation, increased government spending and welfare, these are all things that could be construed to be at least partially "socialism" under this definition.
– mbrig
Feb 22 at 17:01
7
@mbrig The current Wikipedia article does not have that definition, and I can't find it in the recent revision history either.
– Jouni Sirén
Feb 23 at 1:54
13
Also note that many socialist or communist nations, even tyrannical authoritarian ones, have always slapped "Democratic", "Republic", or "People" in their name (e.g. "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" (North Korea), "People's Republic of China", "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)"). To many right-wing Americans, "democratic socialism" just means "socialism with an extra dash of deception by pretending to be democratic". The general rightwing feeling being, "if you have to convince me you're democratic by adding it into your name, you probably aren't."
– Jamin Grey
Feb 23 at 3:05
7
@JouniSirén ah my bad, that's the definition google is popping up in its little info box, which they usually crib from wikipedia, but in this case, seems to be some kind of dictionary they aren't linking. My apologies
– mbrig
2 days ago
8
8
Did Saunders first use the term before any opponents called hm that? Sources for either would help.
– Mark
Feb 22 at 15:59
Did Saunders first use the term before any opponents called hm that? Sources for either would help.
– Mark
Feb 22 at 15:59
39
39
I think calling his use strictly wrong is overstating the matter. Here's wikipedia's (supported by sources) definition of socialism: "a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole" [emphasis mine]. Expanded banking, environmental, & healthcare regulation, increased government spending and welfare, these are all things that could be construed to be at least partially "socialism" under this definition.
– mbrig
Feb 22 at 17:01
I think calling his use strictly wrong is overstating the matter. Here's wikipedia's (supported by sources) definition of socialism: "a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole" [emphasis mine]. Expanded banking, environmental, & healthcare regulation, increased government spending and welfare, these are all things that could be construed to be at least partially "socialism" under this definition.
– mbrig
Feb 22 at 17:01
7
7
@mbrig The current Wikipedia article does not have that definition, and I can't find it in the recent revision history either.
– Jouni Sirén
Feb 23 at 1:54
@mbrig The current Wikipedia article does not have that definition, and I can't find it in the recent revision history either.
– Jouni Sirén
Feb 23 at 1:54
13
13
Also note that many socialist or communist nations, even tyrannical authoritarian ones, have always slapped "Democratic", "Republic", or "People" in their name (e.g. "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" (North Korea), "People's Republic of China", "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)"). To many right-wing Americans, "democratic socialism" just means "socialism with an extra dash of deception by pretending to be democratic". The general rightwing feeling being, "if you have to convince me you're democratic by adding it into your name, you probably aren't."
– Jamin Grey
Feb 23 at 3:05
Also note that many socialist or communist nations, even tyrannical authoritarian ones, have always slapped "Democratic", "Republic", or "People" in their name (e.g. "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" (North Korea), "People's Republic of China", "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)"). To many right-wing Americans, "democratic socialism" just means "socialism with an extra dash of deception by pretending to be democratic". The general rightwing feeling being, "if you have to convince me you're democratic by adding it into your name, you probably aren't."
– Jamin Grey
Feb 23 at 3:05
7
7
@JouniSirén ah my bad, that's the definition google is popping up in its little info box, which they usually crib from wikipedia, but in this case, seems to be some kind of dictionary they aren't linking. My apologies
– mbrig
2 days ago
@JouniSirén ah my bad, that's the definition google is popping up in its little info box, which they usually crib from wikipedia, but in this case, seems to be some kind of dictionary they aren't linking. My apologies
– mbrig
2 days ago
|
show 5 more comments
Why is it that Bernie Sanders always called a "socialist"?
I think getting a quick history lesson to get some context might help explain how "socialist" is used in US media.
First, I want to highlight the long history of anti-(anti-capitalism); second, show how anything anti-capitalism is generally conflated; and third, how this is the case in the present day.
Discussing communism might seem like a detour, but bear with me for a moment. I'll start with The (first) Red Scare (1917-1920):
Political scientist, and former member of the Communist Party Murray B. Levin wrote that the Red Scare was "a nationwide anti-radical hysteria provoked by a mounting fear and anxiety that a Bolshevik revolution in America was imminent—a revolution that would change Church, home, marriage, civility, and the American way of Life".
Around the time of the second world war McCarthyism (~ second red scare) took hold:
During the McCarthy era, hundreds of Americans were accused of being communists or communist sympathizers; they became the subject of aggressive investigations and questioning before government or private industry panels, committees and agencies.
You might notice that the above two quotes only reference communism. I'll discuss this a bit more below, but I want to continue the walk through history with a quote from wiki page on the history of socialism in the United States:
COINTELPRO [(1956–1971)] was a series of covert and at times illegal[189] projects conducted by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) aimed at surveying, infiltrating, discrediting and disrupting domestic political organizations[190] FBI records show that 85% of COINTELPRO resources targeted groups and individuals that the FBI deemed "subversive",[191] including communist and socialist organizations; ...
The point is, there's a long history in the US of government responses to anti-capitalist movements, as these are generally not viewed favorably. There's a lot more that could be said (labor movements; class; race & racism; gender, to name a few related issues), but that's a rough overview.
The second point I wanted to address was the conflation of anti-capitalist terms. I pointed out that two of the quotes only mentioned communism, but actually all of the above wiki pages can be found on the history of socialism in the US wiki page. I wanted to bring this up to point out that the government response conflates anti-capitalist movements. The same wiki page notes that
The widespread use of the word "socialism" as a political epithet against the Obama government by its opponents caused National Director Frank Llewellyn to declare that "over the past 12 months, the Democratic Socialists of America has received more media attention than it has over the past 12 years"
Even though the Obama administration and most leftists agreed that his administration was not socialist. The source for this claim is a Chicago Tribune article, which goes on to say:
To most, socialist policies are synonymous with any expansion in government spending (although many capitalist nations funnel more of their gross domestic product through the public sector than the U.S. does). source
Here's a foxnews article which defines socialism as communism, (though I think the author was trying to distinguish the two):
There was a time in American politics when the term "socialism" conjured up images of the Cold War, the U.S.S.R, Joseph Stalin and Karl Marx, nuclear threats, government domination of private industry and gulags. For most Americans who came of age during the height of the Cold War, who remember being taught to hide under their desks at school, socialism – like communism – has long been a dirty word. source
In summary, in the United States, pro-capitalism is the majority view (to varying degrees; this means different things to different people). That is, people endorsing communism, socialism, and democratic socialism are a small minority (i.e., as a ruling system of government). The distinction between communism, socialism, and democratic socialism is generally lost on anyone outside specific academic groups, and lost on the general a-politic public. It is only when you venture in to certain leftist groups that the distinction between these groups is recognized. (And maybe certain non-leftist groups too. The point is, a small minority.)
Third, to go back to the original question:
Why is it that Bernie Sanders always called a "socialist"?
You're right that Sanders is not a socialist. But he's aware of the US sentiment of the term, as I outlined above. For example, an article on a Sanders speech :
Throughout the decades, he [Sanders] argued, "socialist" has been a term conservatives deployed when Democrats do something popular:
Almost everything [Roosevelt] proposed was called "socialist." I thought I would mention that just in passing. Social Security, which transformed life for the elderly in this country, was defined by his opponents as "socialist." The concept of the "minimum wage"—that workers had to be paid at least a certain amount of money for their labor—was seen as a radical intrusion into the marketplace and was described as "socialist."
He has embraced this view of himself as someone that supports progressive social policies. Though he does tend to describe himself as "social democratic" when discussing the topic, and seems to be aware of the different in terms:
Sanders: Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader in the Senate, often criticizes President Obama, incorrectly, for trying to push "European-style socialism," and McConnell says the American people don’t want it. First of all, of course, Obama is not trying to push European-style socialism. Second of all, I happen to believe that, if the American people understood the significant accomplishments that have taken place under social-democratic governments, democratic-socialist governments, labor governments throughout Europe, they would be shocked to know about those accomplishments. One of the goals of this campaign is to advance that understanding… source
In summary, Sanders is called "socialist" because the US media in general describes policies that provide some kind of assistance (for example, food aid or health care) as socialist. This is just the current nature of the discussion at the national level. This is a rather US centric (i.e., isolated) understanding of the term "socialist" which is more properly understood in countries to the left of the United States.
Sanders doesn't seem to object to the term if it is applied to him, but when discussing his views will refer to himself as "democratic socialist" instead of "socialist." And just as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is not democratic, neither is "democratic socialist" the same thing as "socialist." But as detailed above, this distinction is rarely made clear in US media.
15
I downvoted for the simple reason that this is a needlessly longwinded answer that fails to point out Bernie Sanders is called a socialist because he calls himself a socialist. The fact that he isn't a socialist according to several previously well understood definitions doesn't negate the fact that this term is used to describe himself because he uses it.
– Joe
Feb 22 at 16:45
14
@Joe, I think you are confusing 1) when he doesn't make a pedantic argument against the "socialist" label and 2) how he describes himself as "democrat socialist". For example, Sanders saying (1) "The next time you hear me attacked as a socialist" and (2) "what democratic socialism means to me" both in this MSNBC article. I tried to make this point in my answer, but perhaps you have a suggestion for how I can clarify. msnbc.com/msnbc/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism
– BurnsBA
Feb 22 at 17:03
13
@Joe, that's beyond pedantic, and demonstrably false. If you call yourself an anti-capitalist, it doesn't mean folk should conflate you as a capitalist because anti-capitalist has "capitalist" in the name. As an American, it really bums me out that we're generally so ignorant of semantics and actual meanings in things. Bernie could call himself anything and the right would decry him as a socialist due to his platform. And no, I'm not a leftist. I'm simply an American dude who's tired of ignorant rhetoric in my country's politics.
– Jesse Williams
Feb 22 at 20:08
13
And the fact that you found this answer too "long winded" is exactly WHY it's so tiresome talking to most other Americans about politics. Nobody wants foundational information, just an echo chamber that tells them they are right all the time.
– Jesse Williams
Feb 22 at 20:09
6
@Joe isn't fox mainstream then?
– Mark
2 days ago
|
show 12 more comments
Why is it that Bernie Sanders always called a "socialist"?
I think getting a quick history lesson to get some context might help explain how "socialist" is used in US media.
First, I want to highlight the long history of anti-(anti-capitalism); second, show how anything anti-capitalism is generally conflated; and third, how this is the case in the present day.
Discussing communism might seem like a detour, but bear with me for a moment. I'll start with The (first) Red Scare (1917-1920):
Political scientist, and former member of the Communist Party Murray B. Levin wrote that the Red Scare was "a nationwide anti-radical hysteria provoked by a mounting fear and anxiety that a Bolshevik revolution in America was imminent—a revolution that would change Church, home, marriage, civility, and the American way of Life".
Around the time of the second world war McCarthyism (~ second red scare) took hold:
During the McCarthy era, hundreds of Americans were accused of being communists or communist sympathizers; they became the subject of aggressive investigations and questioning before government or private industry panels, committees and agencies.
You might notice that the above two quotes only reference communism. I'll discuss this a bit more below, but I want to continue the walk through history with a quote from wiki page on the history of socialism in the United States:
COINTELPRO [(1956–1971)] was a series of covert and at times illegal[189] projects conducted by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) aimed at surveying, infiltrating, discrediting and disrupting domestic political organizations[190] FBI records show that 85% of COINTELPRO resources targeted groups and individuals that the FBI deemed "subversive",[191] including communist and socialist organizations; ...
The point is, there's a long history in the US of government responses to anti-capitalist movements, as these are generally not viewed favorably. There's a lot more that could be said (labor movements; class; race & racism; gender, to name a few related issues), but that's a rough overview.
The second point I wanted to address was the conflation of anti-capitalist terms. I pointed out that two of the quotes only mentioned communism, but actually all of the above wiki pages can be found on the history of socialism in the US wiki page. I wanted to bring this up to point out that the government response conflates anti-capitalist movements. The same wiki page notes that
The widespread use of the word "socialism" as a political epithet against the Obama government by its opponents caused National Director Frank Llewellyn to declare that "over the past 12 months, the Democratic Socialists of America has received more media attention than it has over the past 12 years"
Even though the Obama administration and most leftists agreed that his administration was not socialist. The source for this claim is a Chicago Tribune article, which goes on to say:
To most, socialist policies are synonymous with any expansion in government spending (although many capitalist nations funnel more of their gross domestic product through the public sector than the U.S. does). source
Here's a foxnews article which defines socialism as communism, (though I think the author was trying to distinguish the two):
There was a time in American politics when the term "socialism" conjured up images of the Cold War, the U.S.S.R, Joseph Stalin and Karl Marx, nuclear threats, government domination of private industry and gulags. For most Americans who came of age during the height of the Cold War, who remember being taught to hide under their desks at school, socialism – like communism – has long been a dirty word. source
In summary, in the United States, pro-capitalism is the majority view (to varying degrees; this means different things to different people). That is, people endorsing communism, socialism, and democratic socialism are a small minority (i.e., as a ruling system of government). The distinction between communism, socialism, and democratic socialism is generally lost on anyone outside specific academic groups, and lost on the general a-politic public. It is only when you venture in to certain leftist groups that the distinction between these groups is recognized. (And maybe certain non-leftist groups too. The point is, a small minority.)
Third, to go back to the original question:
Why is it that Bernie Sanders always called a "socialist"?
You're right that Sanders is not a socialist. But he's aware of the US sentiment of the term, as I outlined above. For example, an article on a Sanders speech :
Throughout the decades, he [Sanders] argued, "socialist" has been a term conservatives deployed when Democrats do something popular:
Almost everything [Roosevelt] proposed was called "socialist." I thought I would mention that just in passing. Social Security, which transformed life for the elderly in this country, was defined by his opponents as "socialist." The concept of the "minimum wage"—that workers had to be paid at least a certain amount of money for their labor—was seen as a radical intrusion into the marketplace and was described as "socialist."
He has embraced this view of himself as someone that supports progressive social policies. Though he does tend to describe himself as "social democratic" when discussing the topic, and seems to be aware of the different in terms:
Sanders: Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader in the Senate, often criticizes President Obama, incorrectly, for trying to push "European-style socialism," and McConnell says the American people don’t want it. First of all, of course, Obama is not trying to push European-style socialism. Second of all, I happen to believe that, if the American people understood the significant accomplishments that have taken place under social-democratic governments, democratic-socialist governments, labor governments throughout Europe, they would be shocked to know about those accomplishments. One of the goals of this campaign is to advance that understanding… source
In summary, Sanders is called "socialist" because the US media in general describes policies that provide some kind of assistance (for example, food aid or health care) as socialist. This is just the current nature of the discussion at the national level. This is a rather US centric (i.e., isolated) understanding of the term "socialist" which is more properly understood in countries to the left of the United States.
Sanders doesn't seem to object to the term if it is applied to him, but when discussing his views will refer to himself as "democratic socialist" instead of "socialist." And just as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is not democratic, neither is "democratic socialist" the same thing as "socialist." But as detailed above, this distinction is rarely made clear in US media.
15
I downvoted for the simple reason that this is a needlessly longwinded answer that fails to point out Bernie Sanders is called a socialist because he calls himself a socialist. The fact that he isn't a socialist according to several previously well understood definitions doesn't negate the fact that this term is used to describe himself because he uses it.
– Joe
Feb 22 at 16:45
14
@Joe, I think you are confusing 1) when he doesn't make a pedantic argument against the "socialist" label and 2) how he describes himself as "democrat socialist". For example, Sanders saying (1) "The next time you hear me attacked as a socialist" and (2) "what democratic socialism means to me" both in this MSNBC article. I tried to make this point in my answer, but perhaps you have a suggestion for how I can clarify. msnbc.com/msnbc/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism
– BurnsBA
Feb 22 at 17:03
13
@Joe, that's beyond pedantic, and demonstrably false. If you call yourself an anti-capitalist, it doesn't mean folk should conflate you as a capitalist because anti-capitalist has "capitalist" in the name. As an American, it really bums me out that we're generally so ignorant of semantics and actual meanings in things. Bernie could call himself anything and the right would decry him as a socialist due to his platform. And no, I'm not a leftist. I'm simply an American dude who's tired of ignorant rhetoric in my country's politics.
– Jesse Williams
Feb 22 at 20:08
13
And the fact that you found this answer too "long winded" is exactly WHY it's so tiresome talking to most other Americans about politics. Nobody wants foundational information, just an echo chamber that tells them they are right all the time.
– Jesse Williams
Feb 22 at 20:09
6
@Joe isn't fox mainstream then?
– Mark
2 days ago
|
show 12 more comments
Why is it that Bernie Sanders always called a "socialist"?
I think getting a quick history lesson to get some context might help explain how "socialist" is used in US media.
First, I want to highlight the long history of anti-(anti-capitalism); second, show how anything anti-capitalism is generally conflated; and third, how this is the case in the present day.
Discussing communism might seem like a detour, but bear with me for a moment. I'll start with The (first) Red Scare (1917-1920):
Political scientist, and former member of the Communist Party Murray B. Levin wrote that the Red Scare was "a nationwide anti-radical hysteria provoked by a mounting fear and anxiety that a Bolshevik revolution in America was imminent—a revolution that would change Church, home, marriage, civility, and the American way of Life".
Around the time of the second world war McCarthyism (~ second red scare) took hold:
During the McCarthy era, hundreds of Americans were accused of being communists or communist sympathizers; they became the subject of aggressive investigations and questioning before government or private industry panels, committees and agencies.
You might notice that the above two quotes only reference communism. I'll discuss this a bit more below, but I want to continue the walk through history with a quote from wiki page on the history of socialism in the United States:
COINTELPRO [(1956–1971)] was a series of covert and at times illegal[189] projects conducted by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) aimed at surveying, infiltrating, discrediting and disrupting domestic political organizations[190] FBI records show that 85% of COINTELPRO resources targeted groups and individuals that the FBI deemed "subversive",[191] including communist and socialist organizations; ...
The point is, there's a long history in the US of government responses to anti-capitalist movements, as these are generally not viewed favorably. There's a lot more that could be said (labor movements; class; race & racism; gender, to name a few related issues), but that's a rough overview.
The second point I wanted to address was the conflation of anti-capitalist terms. I pointed out that two of the quotes only mentioned communism, but actually all of the above wiki pages can be found on the history of socialism in the US wiki page. I wanted to bring this up to point out that the government response conflates anti-capitalist movements. The same wiki page notes that
The widespread use of the word "socialism" as a political epithet against the Obama government by its opponents caused National Director Frank Llewellyn to declare that "over the past 12 months, the Democratic Socialists of America has received more media attention than it has over the past 12 years"
Even though the Obama administration and most leftists agreed that his administration was not socialist. The source for this claim is a Chicago Tribune article, which goes on to say:
To most, socialist policies are synonymous with any expansion in government spending (although many capitalist nations funnel more of their gross domestic product through the public sector than the U.S. does). source
Here's a foxnews article which defines socialism as communism, (though I think the author was trying to distinguish the two):
There was a time in American politics when the term "socialism" conjured up images of the Cold War, the U.S.S.R, Joseph Stalin and Karl Marx, nuclear threats, government domination of private industry and gulags. For most Americans who came of age during the height of the Cold War, who remember being taught to hide under their desks at school, socialism – like communism – has long been a dirty word. source
In summary, in the United States, pro-capitalism is the majority view (to varying degrees; this means different things to different people). That is, people endorsing communism, socialism, and democratic socialism are a small minority (i.e., as a ruling system of government). The distinction between communism, socialism, and democratic socialism is generally lost on anyone outside specific academic groups, and lost on the general a-politic public. It is only when you venture in to certain leftist groups that the distinction between these groups is recognized. (And maybe certain non-leftist groups too. The point is, a small minority.)
Third, to go back to the original question:
Why is it that Bernie Sanders always called a "socialist"?
You're right that Sanders is not a socialist. But he's aware of the US sentiment of the term, as I outlined above. For example, an article on a Sanders speech :
Throughout the decades, he [Sanders] argued, "socialist" has been a term conservatives deployed when Democrats do something popular:
Almost everything [Roosevelt] proposed was called "socialist." I thought I would mention that just in passing. Social Security, which transformed life for the elderly in this country, was defined by his opponents as "socialist." The concept of the "minimum wage"—that workers had to be paid at least a certain amount of money for their labor—was seen as a radical intrusion into the marketplace and was described as "socialist."
He has embraced this view of himself as someone that supports progressive social policies. Though he does tend to describe himself as "social democratic" when discussing the topic, and seems to be aware of the different in terms:
Sanders: Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader in the Senate, often criticizes President Obama, incorrectly, for trying to push "European-style socialism," and McConnell says the American people don’t want it. First of all, of course, Obama is not trying to push European-style socialism. Second of all, I happen to believe that, if the American people understood the significant accomplishments that have taken place under social-democratic governments, democratic-socialist governments, labor governments throughout Europe, they would be shocked to know about those accomplishments. One of the goals of this campaign is to advance that understanding… source
In summary, Sanders is called "socialist" because the US media in general describes policies that provide some kind of assistance (for example, food aid or health care) as socialist. This is just the current nature of the discussion at the national level. This is a rather US centric (i.e., isolated) understanding of the term "socialist" which is more properly understood in countries to the left of the United States.
Sanders doesn't seem to object to the term if it is applied to him, but when discussing his views will refer to himself as "democratic socialist" instead of "socialist." And just as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is not democratic, neither is "democratic socialist" the same thing as "socialist." But as detailed above, this distinction is rarely made clear in US media.
Why is it that Bernie Sanders always called a "socialist"?
I think getting a quick history lesson to get some context might help explain how "socialist" is used in US media.
First, I want to highlight the long history of anti-(anti-capitalism); second, show how anything anti-capitalism is generally conflated; and third, how this is the case in the present day.
Discussing communism might seem like a detour, but bear with me for a moment. I'll start with The (first) Red Scare (1917-1920):
Political scientist, and former member of the Communist Party Murray B. Levin wrote that the Red Scare was "a nationwide anti-radical hysteria provoked by a mounting fear and anxiety that a Bolshevik revolution in America was imminent—a revolution that would change Church, home, marriage, civility, and the American way of Life".
Around the time of the second world war McCarthyism (~ second red scare) took hold:
During the McCarthy era, hundreds of Americans were accused of being communists or communist sympathizers; they became the subject of aggressive investigations and questioning before government or private industry panels, committees and agencies.
You might notice that the above two quotes only reference communism. I'll discuss this a bit more below, but I want to continue the walk through history with a quote from wiki page on the history of socialism in the United States:
COINTELPRO [(1956–1971)] was a series of covert and at times illegal[189] projects conducted by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) aimed at surveying, infiltrating, discrediting and disrupting domestic political organizations[190] FBI records show that 85% of COINTELPRO resources targeted groups and individuals that the FBI deemed "subversive",[191] including communist and socialist organizations; ...
The point is, there's a long history in the US of government responses to anti-capitalist movements, as these are generally not viewed favorably. There's a lot more that could be said (labor movements; class; race & racism; gender, to name a few related issues), but that's a rough overview.
The second point I wanted to address was the conflation of anti-capitalist terms. I pointed out that two of the quotes only mentioned communism, but actually all of the above wiki pages can be found on the history of socialism in the US wiki page. I wanted to bring this up to point out that the government response conflates anti-capitalist movements. The same wiki page notes that
The widespread use of the word "socialism" as a political epithet against the Obama government by its opponents caused National Director Frank Llewellyn to declare that "over the past 12 months, the Democratic Socialists of America has received more media attention than it has over the past 12 years"
Even though the Obama administration and most leftists agreed that his administration was not socialist. The source for this claim is a Chicago Tribune article, which goes on to say:
To most, socialist policies are synonymous with any expansion in government spending (although many capitalist nations funnel more of their gross domestic product through the public sector than the U.S. does). source
Here's a foxnews article which defines socialism as communism, (though I think the author was trying to distinguish the two):
There was a time in American politics when the term "socialism" conjured up images of the Cold War, the U.S.S.R, Joseph Stalin and Karl Marx, nuclear threats, government domination of private industry and gulags. For most Americans who came of age during the height of the Cold War, who remember being taught to hide under their desks at school, socialism – like communism – has long been a dirty word. source
In summary, in the United States, pro-capitalism is the majority view (to varying degrees; this means different things to different people). That is, people endorsing communism, socialism, and democratic socialism are a small minority (i.e., as a ruling system of government). The distinction between communism, socialism, and democratic socialism is generally lost on anyone outside specific academic groups, and lost on the general a-politic public. It is only when you venture in to certain leftist groups that the distinction between these groups is recognized. (And maybe certain non-leftist groups too. The point is, a small minority.)
Third, to go back to the original question:
Why is it that Bernie Sanders always called a "socialist"?
You're right that Sanders is not a socialist. But he's aware of the US sentiment of the term, as I outlined above. For example, an article on a Sanders speech :
Throughout the decades, he [Sanders] argued, "socialist" has been a term conservatives deployed when Democrats do something popular:
Almost everything [Roosevelt] proposed was called "socialist." I thought I would mention that just in passing. Social Security, which transformed life for the elderly in this country, was defined by his opponents as "socialist." The concept of the "minimum wage"—that workers had to be paid at least a certain amount of money for their labor—was seen as a radical intrusion into the marketplace and was described as "socialist."
He has embraced this view of himself as someone that supports progressive social policies. Though he does tend to describe himself as "social democratic" when discussing the topic, and seems to be aware of the different in terms:
Sanders: Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader in the Senate, often criticizes President Obama, incorrectly, for trying to push "European-style socialism," and McConnell says the American people don’t want it. First of all, of course, Obama is not trying to push European-style socialism. Second of all, I happen to believe that, if the American people understood the significant accomplishments that have taken place under social-democratic governments, democratic-socialist governments, labor governments throughout Europe, they would be shocked to know about those accomplishments. One of the goals of this campaign is to advance that understanding… source
In summary, Sanders is called "socialist" because the US media in general describes policies that provide some kind of assistance (for example, food aid or health care) as socialist. This is just the current nature of the discussion at the national level. This is a rather US centric (i.e., isolated) understanding of the term "socialist" which is more properly understood in countries to the left of the United States.
Sanders doesn't seem to object to the term if it is applied to him, but when discussing his views will refer to himself as "democratic socialist" instead of "socialist." And just as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is not democratic, neither is "democratic socialist" the same thing as "socialist." But as detailed above, this distinction is rarely made clear in US media.
edited Feb 22 at 18:54
answered Feb 22 at 16:02
BurnsBABurnsBA
898310
898310
15
I downvoted for the simple reason that this is a needlessly longwinded answer that fails to point out Bernie Sanders is called a socialist because he calls himself a socialist. The fact that he isn't a socialist according to several previously well understood definitions doesn't negate the fact that this term is used to describe himself because he uses it.
– Joe
Feb 22 at 16:45
14
@Joe, I think you are confusing 1) when he doesn't make a pedantic argument against the "socialist" label and 2) how he describes himself as "democrat socialist". For example, Sanders saying (1) "The next time you hear me attacked as a socialist" and (2) "what democratic socialism means to me" both in this MSNBC article. I tried to make this point in my answer, but perhaps you have a suggestion for how I can clarify. msnbc.com/msnbc/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism
– BurnsBA
Feb 22 at 17:03
13
@Joe, that's beyond pedantic, and demonstrably false. If you call yourself an anti-capitalist, it doesn't mean folk should conflate you as a capitalist because anti-capitalist has "capitalist" in the name. As an American, it really bums me out that we're generally so ignorant of semantics and actual meanings in things. Bernie could call himself anything and the right would decry him as a socialist due to his platform. And no, I'm not a leftist. I'm simply an American dude who's tired of ignorant rhetoric in my country's politics.
– Jesse Williams
Feb 22 at 20:08
13
And the fact that you found this answer too "long winded" is exactly WHY it's so tiresome talking to most other Americans about politics. Nobody wants foundational information, just an echo chamber that tells them they are right all the time.
– Jesse Williams
Feb 22 at 20:09
6
@Joe isn't fox mainstream then?
– Mark
2 days ago
|
show 12 more comments
15
I downvoted for the simple reason that this is a needlessly longwinded answer that fails to point out Bernie Sanders is called a socialist because he calls himself a socialist. The fact that he isn't a socialist according to several previously well understood definitions doesn't negate the fact that this term is used to describe himself because he uses it.
– Joe
Feb 22 at 16:45
14
@Joe, I think you are confusing 1) when he doesn't make a pedantic argument against the "socialist" label and 2) how he describes himself as "democrat socialist". For example, Sanders saying (1) "The next time you hear me attacked as a socialist" and (2) "what democratic socialism means to me" both in this MSNBC article. I tried to make this point in my answer, but perhaps you have a suggestion for how I can clarify. msnbc.com/msnbc/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism
– BurnsBA
Feb 22 at 17:03
13
@Joe, that's beyond pedantic, and demonstrably false. If you call yourself an anti-capitalist, it doesn't mean folk should conflate you as a capitalist because anti-capitalist has "capitalist" in the name. As an American, it really bums me out that we're generally so ignorant of semantics and actual meanings in things. Bernie could call himself anything and the right would decry him as a socialist due to his platform. And no, I'm not a leftist. I'm simply an American dude who's tired of ignorant rhetoric in my country's politics.
– Jesse Williams
Feb 22 at 20:08
13
And the fact that you found this answer too "long winded" is exactly WHY it's so tiresome talking to most other Americans about politics. Nobody wants foundational information, just an echo chamber that tells them they are right all the time.
– Jesse Williams
Feb 22 at 20:09
6
@Joe isn't fox mainstream then?
– Mark
2 days ago
15
15
I downvoted for the simple reason that this is a needlessly longwinded answer that fails to point out Bernie Sanders is called a socialist because he calls himself a socialist. The fact that he isn't a socialist according to several previously well understood definitions doesn't negate the fact that this term is used to describe himself because he uses it.
– Joe
Feb 22 at 16:45
I downvoted for the simple reason that this is a needlessly longwinded answer that fails to point out Bernie Sanders is called a socialist because he calls himself a socialist. The fact that he isn't a socialist according to several previously well understood definitions doesn't negate the fact that this term is used to describe himself because he uses it.
– Joe
Feb 22 at 16:45
14
14
@Joe, I think you are confusing 1) when he doesn't make a pedantic argument against the "socialist" label and 2) how he describes himself as "democrat socialist". For example, Sanders saying (1) "The next time you hear me attacked as a socialist" and (2) "what democratic socialism means to me" both in this MSNBC article. I tried to make this point in my answer, but perhaps you have a suggestion for how I can clarify. msnbc.com/msnbc/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism
– BurnsBA
Feb 22 at 17:03
@Joe, I think you are confusing 1) when he doesn't make a pedantic argument against the "socialist" label and 2) how he describes himself as "democrat socialist". For example, Sanders saying (1) "The next time you hear me attacked as a socialist" and (2) "what democratic socialism means to me" both in this MSNBC article. I tried to make this point in my answer, but perhaps you have a suggestion for how I can clarify. msnbc.com/msnbc/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism
– BurnsBA
Feb 22 at 17:03
13
13
@Joe, that's beyond pedantic, and demonstrably false. If you call yourself an anti-capitalist, it doesn't mean folk should conflate you as a capitalist because anti-capitalist has "capitalist" in the name. As an American, it really bums me out that we're generally so ignorant of semantics and actual meanings in things. Bernie could call himself anything and the right would decry him as a socialist due to his platform. And no, I'm not a leftist. I'm simply an American dude who's tired of ignorant rhetoric in my country's politics.
– Jesse Williams
Feb 22 at 20:08
@Joe, that's beyond pedantic, and demonstrably false. If you call yourself an anti-capitalist, it doesn't mean folk should conflate you as a capitalist because anti-capitalist has "capitalist" in the name. As an American, it really bums me out that we're generally so ignorant of semantics and actual meanings in things. Bernie could call himself anything and the right would decry him as a socialist due to his platform. And no, I'm not a leftist. I'm simply an American dude who's tired of ignorant rhetoric in my country's politics.
– Jesse Williams
Feb 22 at 20:08
13
13
And the fact that you found this answer too "long winded" is exactly WHY it's so tiresome talking to most other Americans about politics. Nobody wants foundational information, just an echo chamber that tells them they are right all the time.
– Jesse Williams
Feb 22 at 20:09
And the fact that you found this answer too "long winded" is exactly WHY it's so tiresome talking to most other Americans about politics. Nobody wants foundational information, just an echo chamber that tells them they are right all the time.
– Jesse Williams
Feb 22 at 20:09
6
6
@Joe isn't fox mainstream then?
– Mark
2 days ago
@Joe isn't fox mainstream then?
– Mark
2 days ago
|
show 12 more comments
It seems likely that people call him a socialist because he's self-identified as one on multiple occasions.
and
When he first won election to the House in 1990, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) embraced his political identity. "I am a socialist and everyone knows that," Sanders said, responding to an ad that tried to link him to the regime of Fidel Castro.
Washington Post: Bernie Sanders is an avowed socialist. 52 percent of Democrats are OK with that.
etc.
That's a relevant answer, but even Sanders doesn't mean what Europeans mean when they say 'socialist'. His platform is social democratic by European standards. The word 'socialist' is simply a 'false friend'.
– henning
14 hours ago
3
@henning - If you go around calling yourself a socialist, people will call you one.
– Valorum
13 hours ago
I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying this word means something else in Europe than in the US, hence OP's confusion. When Americans say they drive a truck, they don't necessarily mean a 7 t vehicle with twin tires.
– henning
10 hours ago
add a comment |
It seems likely that people call him a socialist because he's self-identified as one on multiple occasions.
and
When he first won election to the House in 1990, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) embraced his political identity. "I am a socialist and everyone knows that," Sanders said, responding to an ad that tried to link him to the regime of Fidel Castro.
Washington Post: Bernie Sanders is an avowed socialist. 52 percent of Democrats are OK with that.
etc.
That's a relevant answer, but even Sanders doesn't mean what Europeans mean when they say 'socialist'. His platform is social democratic by European standards. The word 'socialist' is simply a 'false friend'.
– henning
14 hours ago
3
@henning - If you go around calling yourself a socialist, people will call you one.
– Valorum
13 hours ago
I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying this word means something else in Europe than in the US, hence OP's confusion. When Americans say they drive a truck, they don't necessarily mean a 7 t vehicle with twin tires.
– henning
10 hours ago
add a comment |
It seems likely that people call him a socialist because he's self-identified as one on multiple occasions.
and
When he first won election to the House in 1990, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) embraced his political identity. "I am a socialist and everyone knows that," Sanders said, responding to an ad that tried to link him to the regime of Fidel Castro.
Washington Post: Bernie Sanders is an avowed socialist. 52 percent of Democrats are OK with that.
etc.
It seems likely that people call him a socialist because he's self-identified as one on multiple occasions.
and
When he first won election to the House in 1990, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) embraced his political identity. "I am a socialist and everyone knows that," Sanders said, responding to an ad that tried to link him to the regime of Fidel Castro.
Washington Post: Bernie Sanders is an avowed socialist. 52 percent of Democrats are OK with that.
etc.
answered Feb 23 at 1:24
ValorumValorum
1,814916
1,814916
That's a relevant answer, but even Sanders doesn't mean what Europeans mean when they say 'socialist'. His platform is social democratic by European standards. The word 'socialist' is simply a 'false friend'.
– henning
14 hours ago
3
@henning - If you go around calling yourself a socialist, people will call you one.
– Valorum
13 hours ago
I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying this word means something else in Europe than in the US, hence OP's confusion. When Americans say they drive a truck, they don't necessarily mean a 7 t vehicle with twin tires.
– henning
10 hours ago
add a comment |
That's a relevant answer, but even Sanders doesn't mean what Europeans mean when they say 'socialist'. His platform is social democratic by European standards. The word 'socialist' is simply a 'false friend'.
– henning
14 hours ago
3
@henning - If you go around calling yourself a socialist, people will call you one.
– Valorum
13 hours ago
I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying this word means something else in Europe than in the US, hence OP's confusion. When Americans say they drive a truck, they don't necessarily mean a 7 t vehicle with twin tires.
– henning
10 hours ago
That's a relevant answer, but even Sanders doesn't mean what Europeans mean when they say 'socialist'. His platform is social democratic by European standards. The word 'socialist' is simply a 'false friend'.
– henning
14 hours ago
That's a relevant answer, but even Sanders doesn't mean what Europeans mean when they say 'socialist'. His platform is social democratic by European standards. The word 'socialist' is simply a 'false friend'.
– henning
14 hours ago
3
3
@henning - If you go around calling yourself a socialist, people will call you one.
– Valorum
13 hours ago
@henning - If you go around calling yourself a socialist, people will call you one.
– Valorum
13 hours ago
I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying this word means something else in Europe than in the US, hence OP's confusion. When Americans say they drive a truck, they don't necessarily mean a 7 t vehicle with twin tires.
– henning
10 hours ago
I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying this word means something else in Europe than in the US, hence OP's confusion. When Americans say they drive a truck, they don't necessarily mean a 7 t vehicle with twin tires.
– henning
10 hours ago
add a comment |
Folks who support the view that Sanders is actually socialist frequently point to this quote from him way back in 1987:
Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production, it
means decentralization, it means involving people in their work.
Rather than having bosses and workers it means having democratic
control over the factories and shops to as great a degree as you can.
Sanders continues to demonstrate admiration for Eugene V. Debs, the most prominent Socialist candidate in the history of the United States.
But yes, if we focus on his major policy proposals and imagine Sanders in a multiparty parliamentary democracy, the label "Social Democrat" would be a better fit.
2
Interesting quote, but do folks actually frequently refer to his 1987 quote?
– gerrit
yesterday
@gerrit I noticed this quote all over non-public Facebook comments the day he announced. If I search "Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production" on google I find 167 hits, and on the top page at least, they all are about Bernie Sanders.
– Brian Z
20 hours ago
3
I would consider 167 Google hits to be really a rather small number.
– gerrit
18 hours ago
If he said that, he's grossly wrong: democracy doesn't mean that in any dictionary. Perhaps the quotation is wrong, and that could explain its low hit number: in some circles, socialism may mean this. But what he's really describing is Anarcho-syndicalism.
– Zeus
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Folks who support the view that Sanders is actually socialist frequently point to this quote from him way back in 1987:
Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production, it
means decentralization, it means involving people in their work.
Rather than having bosses and workers it means having democratic
control over the factories and shops to as great a degree as you can.
Sanders continues to demonstrate admiration for Eugene V. Debs, the most prominent Socialist candidate in the history of the United States.
But yes, if we focus on his major policy proposals and imagine Sanders in a multiparty parliamentary democracy, the label "Social Democrat" would be a better fit.
2
Interesting quote, but do folks actually frequently refer to his 1987 quote?
– gerrit
yesterday
@gerrit I noticed this quote all over non-public Facebook comments the day he announced. If I search "Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production" on google I find 167 hits, and on the top page at least, they all are about Bernie Sanders.
– Brian Z
20 hours ago
3
I would consider 167 Google hits to be really a rather small number.
– gerrit
18 hours ago
If he said that, he's grossly wrong: democracy doesn't mean that in any dictionary. Perhaps the quotation is wrong, and that could explain its low hit number: in some circles, socialism may mean this. But what he's really describing is Anarcho-syndicalism.
– Zeus
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Folks who support the view that Sanders is actually socialist frequently point to this quote from him way back in 1987:
Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production, it
means decentralization, it means involving people in their work.
Rather than having bosses and workers it means having democratic
control over the factories and shops to as great a degree as you can.
Sanders continues to demonstrate admiration for Eugene V. Debs, the most prominent Socialist candidate in the history of the United States.
But yes, if we focus on his major policy proposals and imagine Sanders in a multiparty parliamentary democracy, the label "Social Democrat" would be a better fit.
Folks who support the view that Sanders is actually socialist frequently point to this quote from him way back in 1987:
Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production, it
means decentralization, it means involving people in their work.
Rather than having bosses and workers it means having democratic
control over the factories and shops to as great a degree as you can.
Sanders continues to demonstrate admiration for Eugene V. Debs, the most prominent Socialist candidate in the history of the United States.
But yes, if we focus on his major policy proposals and imagine Sanders in a multiparty parliamentary democracy, the label "Social Democrat" would be a better fit.
edited Feb 22 at 19:23
answered Feb 22 at 18:30
Brian ZBrian Z
2,588816
2,588816
2
Interesting quote, but do folks actually frequently refer to his 1987 quote?
– gerrit
yesterday
@gerrit I noticed this quote all over non-public Facebook comments the day he announced. If I search "Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production" on google I find 167 hits, and on the top page at least, they all are about Bernie Sanders.
– Brian Z
20 hours ago
3
I would consider 167 Google hits to be really a rather small number.
– gerrit
18 hours ago
If he said that, he's grossly wrong: democracy doesn't mean that in any dictionary. Perhaps the quotation is wrong, and that could explain its low hit number: in some circles, socialism may mean this. But what he's really describing is Anarcho-syndicalism.
– Zeus
5 hours ago
add a comment |
2
Interesting quote, but do folks actually frequently refer to his 1987 quote?
– gerrit
yesterday
@gerrit I noticed this quote all over non-public Facebook comments the day he announced. If I search "Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production" on google I find 167 hits, and on the top page at least, they all are about Bernie Sanders.
– Brian Z
20 hours ago
3
I would consider 167 Google hits to be really a rather small number.
– gerrit
18 hours ago
If he said that, he's grossly wrong: democracy doesn't mean that in any dictionary. Perhaps the quotation is wrong, and that could explain its low hit number: in some circles, socialism may mean this. But what he's really describing is Anarcho-syndicalism.
– Zeus
5 hours ago
2
2
Interesting quote, but do folks actually frequently refer to his 1987 quote?
– gerrit
yesterday
Interesting quote, but do folks actually frequently refer to his 1987 quote?
– gerrit
yesterday
@gerrit I noticed this quote all over non-public Facebook comments the day he announced. If I search "Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production" on google I find 167 hits, and on the top page at least, they all are about Bernie Sanders.
– Brian Z
20 hours ago
@gerrit I noticed this quote all over non-public Facebook comments the day he announced. If I search "Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production" on google I find 167 hits, and on the top page at least, they all are about Bernie Sanders.
– Brian Z
20 hours ago
3
3
I would consider 167 Google hits to be really a rather small number.
– gerrit
18 hours ago
I would consider 167 Google hits to be really a rather small number.
– gerrit
18 hours ago
If he said that, he's grossly wrong: democracy doesn't mean that in any dictionary. Perhaps the quotation is wrong, and that could explain its low hit number: in some circles, socialism may mean this. But what he's really describing is Anarcho-syndicalism.
– Zeus
5 hours ago
If he said that, he's grossly wrong: democracy doesn't mean that in any dictionary. Perhaps the quotation is wrong, and that could explain its low hit number: in some circles, socialism may mean this. But what he's really describing is Anarcho-syndicalism.
– Zeus
5 hours ago
add a comment |
I think there's an important distinction to be made in the examples you noted.
The left-of-center news outlets actually make an effort to call him by his chosen name of "Democratic Socialist."
The Hill (left-center)
The Nation (left)
It's the right-wing sources that conflate the terminology.
Daily Mail (right, questionable source)
Newsmax (right)
Fox News (right)
(Of course, by European standard, all of these sources would probably be considered a little more to the right than the US ranks them.)
The right-wing likes to use the word socialism as a pejorative, capitalizing on how little Americans know about socialism in the non-pejorative sense, and how much disinformation and conflations has been made about it in the past. If you live in the US, go ahead, try asking random people you know what socialism is. You'll probably get some really funny answers, like "Putin is a socialist" as I do when the topic comes up.
add a comment |
I think there's an important distinction to be made in the examples you noted.
The left-of-center news outlets actually make an effort to call him by his chosen name of "Democratic Socialist."
The Hill (left-center)
The Nation (left)
It's the right-wing sources that conflate the terminology.
Daily Mail (right, questionable source)
Newsmax (right)
Fox News (right)
(Of course, by European standard, all of these sources would probably be considered a little more to the right than the US ranks them.)
The right-wing likes to use the word socialism as a pejorative, capitalizing on how little Americans know about socialism in the non-pejorative sense, and how much disinformation and conflations has been made about it in the past. If you live in the US, go ahead, try asking random people you know what socialism is. You'll probably get some really funny answers, like "Putin is a socialist" as I do when the topic comes up.
add a comment |
I think there's an important distinction to be made in the examples you noted.
The left-of-center news outlets actually make an effort to call him by his chosen name of "Democratic Socialist."
The Hill (left-center)
The Nation (left)
It's the right-wing sources that conflate the terminology.
Daily Mail (right, questionable source)
Newsmax (right)
Fox News (right)
(Of course, by European standard, all of these sources would probably be considered a little more to the right than the US ranks them.)
The right-wing likes to use the word socialism as a pejorative, capitalizing on how little Americans know about socialism in the non-pejorative sense, and how much disinformation and conflations has been made about it in the past. If you live in the US, go ahead, try asking random people you know what socialism is. You'll probably get some really funny answers, like "Putin is a socialist" as I do when the topic comes up.
I think there's an important distinction to be made in the examples you noted.
The left-of-center news outlets actually make an effort to call him by his chosen name of "Democratic Socialist."
The Hill (left-center)
The Nation (left)
It's the right-wing sources that conflate the terminology.
Daily Mail (right, questionable source)
Newsmax (right)
Fox News (right)
(Of course, by European standard, all of these sources would probably be considered a little more to the right than the US ranks them.)
The right-wing likes to use the word socialism as a pejorative, capitalizing on how little Americans know about socialism in the non-pejorative sense, and how much disinformation and conflations has been made about it in the past. If you live in the US, go ahead, try asking random people you know what socialism is. You'll probably get some really funny answers, like "Putin is a socialist" as I do when the topic comes up.
answered Feb 22 at 20:50
CrackpotCrocodileCrackpotCrocodile
2,080422
2,080422
add a comment |
add a comment |
The meaning of the word socialist changes by country and by era. Social democratic is especially crucial in Germany because of the national-socialist phenomenon. The word is a popular ideal which was abused by despots and which lost favor after the 80's, mostly for it's use by despots, it's vagueness and lack of concencus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_communist_states_and_socialist_states
Socialism in the 20th century started out as an ideal term for debate of human rights of expression, minimum wage, trade unions, in the 1920s.
The 1920's ideal is how I was introduced to the concept of socialism in philosophy and history, and same goes for Bernie Sanders too, probably.
Socialism changes a lot by decade and Bernie probably associates socialism with the ideals of his father's generation from the 30's, rather than the recent historical corruptions of socialism used by Venezuela, Germany, Burma, Romania, Lybia and others.
Usage frequency of various political terms according to Googgle Ngram Search:
1
How precisely is the ngram supporting any of the argument you gave? Not that I assume that it would be wrong; I just feel the diagram is just a show-off that adds no substantial information.
– antipattern
2 days ago
3
I don't understand this answer. Venezuela and Germany?
– gerrit
yesterday
It shows the meaning of the word socialist! the political philosophical word of the 1920's and 30's was very prevalent around in 1938 as it was corrupted by the NAZIs, and then it peaked in the middle of the cold war, so it demonstrates why a german would see him as a "social democrat at best". Venezuela and Germany have both had repressive socialist autocracies relatively recently, as has Cuba, Russia, China, and many others. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
– com.prehensible
20 hours ago
add a comment |
The meaning of the word socialist changes by country and by era. Social democratic is especially crucial in Germany because of the national-socialist phenomenon. The word is a popular ideal which was abused by despots and which lost favor after the 80's, mostly for it's use by despots, it's vagueness and lack of concencus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_communist_states_and_socialist_states
Socialism in the 20th century started out as an ideal term for debate of human rights of expression, minimum wage, trade unions, in the 1920s.
The 1920's ideal is how I was introduced to the concept of socialism in philosophy and history, and same goes for Bernie Sanders too, probably.
Socialism changes a lot by decade and Bernie probably associates socialism with the ideals of his father's generation from the 30's, rather than the recent historical corruptions of socialism used by Venezuela, Germany, Burma, Romania, Lybia and others.
Usage frequency of various political terms according to Googgle Ngram Search:
1
How precisely is the ngram supporting any of the argument you gave? Not that I assume that it would be wrong; I just feel the diagram is just a show-off that adds no substantial information.
– antipattern
2 days ago
3
I don't understand this answer. Venezuela and Germany?
– gerrit
yesterday
It shows the meaning of the word socialist! the political philosophical word of the 1920's and 30's was very prevalent around in 1938 as it was corrupted by the NAZIs, and then it peaked in the middle of the cold war, so it demonstrates why a german would see him as a "social democrat at best". Venezuela and Germany have both had repressive socialist autocracies relatively recently, as has Cuba, Russia, China, and many others. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
– com.prehensible
20 hours ago
add a comment |
The meaning of the word socialist changes by country and by era. Social democratic is especially crucial in Germany because of the national-socialist phenomenon. The word is a popular ideal which was abused by despots and which lost favor after the 80's, mostly for it's use by despots, it's vagueness and lack of concencus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_communist_states_and_socialist_states
Socialism in the 20th century started out as an ideal term for debate of human rights of expression, minimum wage, trade unions, in the 1920s.
The 1920's ideal is how I was introduced to the concept of socialism in philosophy and history, and same goes for Bernie Sanders too, probably.
Socialism changes a lot by decade and Bernie probably associates socialism with the ideals of his father's generation from the 30's, rather than the recent historical corruptions of socialism used by Venezuela, Germany, Burma, Romania, Lybia and others.
Usage frequency of various political terms according to Googgle Ngram Search:
The meaning of the word socialist changes by country and by era. Social democratic is especially crucial in Germany because of the national-socialist phenomenon. The word is a popular ideal which was abused by despots and which lost favor after the 80's, mostly for it's use by despots, it's vagueness and lack of concencus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_communist_states_and_socialist_states
Socialism in the 20th century started out as an ideal term for debate of human rights of expression, minimum wage, trade unions, in the 1920s.
The 1920's ideal is how I was introduced to the concept of socialism in philosophy and history, and same goes for Bernie Sanders too, probably.
Socialism changes a lot by decade and Bernie probably associates socialism with the ideals of his father's generation from the 30's, rather than the recent historical corruptions of socialism used by Venezuela, Germany, Burma, Romania, Lybia and others.
Usage frequency of various political terms according to Googgle Ngram Search:
edited 26 mins ago
answered 2 days ago
com.prehensiblecom.prehensible
516311
516311
1
How precisely is the ngram supporting any of the argument you gave? Not that I assume that it would be wrong; I just feel the diagram is just a show-off that adds no substantial information.
– antipattern
2 days ago
3
I don't understand this answer. Venezuela and Germany?
– gerrit
yesterday
It shows the meaning of the word socialist! the political philosophical word of the 1920's and 30's was very prevalent around in 1938 as it was corrupted by the NAZIs, and then it peaked in the middle of the cold war, so it demonstrates why a german would see him as a "social democrat at best". Venezuela and Germany have both had repressive socialist autocracies relatively recently, as has Cuba, Russia, China, and many others. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
– com.prehensible
20 hours ago
add a comment |
1
How precisely is the ngram supporting any of the argument you gave? Not that I assume that it would be wrong; I just feel the diagram is just a show-off that adds no substantial information.
– antipattern
2 days ago
3
I don't understand this answer. Venezuela and Germany?
– gerrit
yesterday
It shows the meaning of the word socialist! the political philosophical word of the 1920's and 30's was very prevalent around in 1938 as it was corrupted by the NAZIs, and then it peaked in the middle of the cold war, so it demonstrates why a german would see him as a "social democrat at best". Venezuela and Germany have both had repressive socialist autocracies relatively recently, as has Cuba, Russia, China, and many others. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
– com.prehensible
20 hours ago
1
1
How precisely is the ngram supporting any of the argument you gave? Not that I assume that it would be wrong; I just feel the diagram is just a show-off that adds no substantial information.
– antipattern
2 days ago
How precisely is the ngram supporting any of the argument you gave? Not that I assume that it would be wrong; I just feel the diagram is just a show-off that adds no substantial information.
– antipattern
2 days ago
3
3
I don't understand this answer. Venezuela and Germany?
– gerrit
yesterday
I don't understand this answer. Venezuela and Germany?
– gerrit
yesterday
It shows the meaning of the word socialist! the political philosophical word of the 1920's and 30's was very prevalent around in 1938 as it was corrupted by the NAZIs, and then it peaked in the middle of the cold war, so it demonstrates why a german would see him as a "social democrat at best". Venezuela and Germany have both had repressive socialist autocracies relatively recently, as has Cuba, Russia, China, and many others. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
– com.prehensible
20 hours ago
It shows the meaning of the word socialist! the political philosophical word of the 1920's and 30's was very prevalent around in 1938 as it was corrupted by the NAZIs, and then it peaked in the middle of the cold war, so it demonstrates why a german would see him as a "social democrat at best". Venezuela and Germany have both had repressive socialist autocracies relatively recently, as has Cuba, Russia, China, and many others. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
– com.prehensible
20 hours ago
add a comment |
During the time he was mayor of Burlington, Vermont, Bernie Sanders referred to himself as a socialist, and was referred to that way in the press. (source: Wikipedia). In his youth, he had been a member of the Young Socialists of America. To my knowledge, that group was socialist, not social democrat, or democratic socialist.
His political thinking may have evolved over the decades, or he may have found a new way to package the same ideas. However, it remains true that the label socialist is one that he took on himself and not one that was pinned on him by detractors.
When he describes his overall vision today, he often cites the model of Nordic Socialism as the kind of society he is aiming for. However, it's important to realize that the Scandinavian countries are not socialist, and their leaderships are quite insistent about this. Most of industry remains under private ownership, albeit heavily regulated.
Tax rates on companies are comparable to similar rates in the USA, considered a capitalist economy. So if that is what he is really aiming for, it would be appropriate to refer to him as something other than a "Democratic Socialist". It's unclear exactly what is meant by Democratic Socialism in any event. It depends on who you ask.
"Most of industry remains under private ownership, albeit heavily regulated." That statement is why many Americans laugh when Europeans claim they aren't socialist. Just because the government "lets" people own companies, the government is still essentially dictating how the companies operate through the heavy regulation. There's not a lot of difference between that and the government outright controlling the companies. It's like a parent who "gives" their teenage child a car but reserves the right to take the car away from them at any time. IOW, the child doesn't really own the car.
– Dunk
10 hours ago
add a comment |
During the time he was mayor of Burlington, Vermont, Bernie Sanders referred to himself as a socialist, and was referred to that way in the press. (source: Wikipedia). In his youth, he had been a member of the Young Socialists of America. To my knowledge, that group was socialist, not social democrat, or democratic socialist.
His political thinking may have evolved over the decades, or he may have found a new way to package the same ideas. However, it remains true that the label socialist is one that he took on himself and not one that was pinned on him by detractors.
When he describes his overall vision today, he often cites the model of Nordic Socialism as the kind of society he is aiming for. However, it's important to realize that the Scandinavian countries are not socialist, and their leaderships are quite insistent about this. Most of industry remains under private ownership, albeit heavily regulated.
Tax rates on companies are comparable to similar rates in the USA, considered a capitalist economy. So if that is what he is really aiming for, it would be appropriate to refer to him as something other than a "Democratic Socialist". It's unclear exactly what is meant by Democratic Socialism in any event. It depends on who you ask.
"Most of industry remains under private ownership, albeit heavily regulated." That statement is why many Americans laugh when Europeans claim they aren't socialist. Just because the government "lets" people own companies, the government is still essentially dictating how the companies operate through the heavy regulation. There's not a lot of difference between that and the government outright controlling the companies. It's like a parent who "gives" their teenage child a car but reserves the right to take the car away from them at any time. IOW, the child doesn't really own the car.
– Dunk
10 hours ago
add a comment |
During the time he was mayor of Burlington, Vermont, Bernie Sanders referred to himself as a socialist, and was referred to that way in the press. (source: Wikipedia). In his youth, he had been a member of the Young Socialists of America. To my knowledge, that group was socialist, not social democrat, or democratic socialist.
His political thinking may have evolved over the decades, or he may have found a new way to package the same ideas. However, it remains true that the label socialist is one that he took on himself and not one that was pinned on him by detractors.
When he describes his overall vision today, he often cites the model of Nordic Socialism as the kind of society he is aiming for. However, it's important to realize that the Scandinavian countries are not socialist, and their leaderships are quite insistent about this. Most of industry remains under private ownership, albeit heavily regulated.
Tax rates on companies are comparable to similar rates in the USA, considered a capitalist economy. So if that is what he is really aiming for, it would be appropriate to refer to him as something other than a "Democratic Socialist". It's unclear exactly what is meant by Democratic Socialism in any event. It depends on who you ask.
During the time he was mayor of Burlington, Vermont, Bernie Sanders referred to himself as a socialist, and was referred to that way in the press. (source: Wikipedia). In his youth, he had been a member of the Young Socialists of America. To my knowledge, that group was socialist, not social democrat, or democratic socialist.
His political thinking may have evolved over the decades, or he may have found a new way to package the same ideas. However, it remains true that the label socialist is one that he took on himself and not one that was pinned on him by detractors.
When he describes his overall vision today, he often cites the model of Nordic Socialism as the kind of society he is aiming for. However, it's important to realize that the Scandinavian countries are not socialist, and their leaderships are quite insistent about this. Most of industry remains under private ownership, albeit heavily regulated.
Tax rates on companies are comparable to similar rates in the USA, considered a capitalist economy. So if that is what he is really aiming for, it would be appropriate to refer to him as something other than a "Democratic Socialist". It's unclear exactly what is meant by Democratic Socialism in any event. It depends on who you ask.
answered yesterday
Walter MittyWalter Mitty
1705
1705
"Most of industry remains under private ownership, albeit heavily regulated." That statement is why many Americans laugh when Europeans claim they aren't socialist. Just because the government "lets" people own companies, the government is still essentially dictating how the companies operate through the heavy regulation. There's not a lot of difference between that and the government outright controlling the companies. It's like a parent who "gives" their teenage child a car but reserves the right to take the car away from them at any time. IOW, the child doesn't really own the car.
– Dunk
10 hours ago
add a comment |
"Most of industry remains under private ownership, albeit heavily regulated." That statement is why many Americans laugh when Europeans claim they aren't socialist. Just because the government "lets" people own companies, the government is still essentially dictating how the companies operate through the heavy regulation. There's not a lot of difference between that and the government outright controlling the companies. It's like a parent who "gives" their teenage child a car but reserves the right to take the car away from them at any time. IOW, the child doesn't really own the car.
– Dunk
10 hours ago
"Most of industry remains under private ownership, albeit heavily regulated." That statement is why many Americans laugh when Europeans claim they aren't socialist. Just because the government "lets" people own companies, the government is still essentially dictating how the companies operate through the heavy regulation. There's not a lot of difference between that and the government outright controlling the companies. It's like a parent who "gives" their teenage child a car but reserves the right to take the car away from them at any time. IOW, the child doesn't really own the car.
– Dunk
10 hours ago
"Most of industry remains under private ownership, albeit heavily regulated." That statement is why many Americans laugh when Europeans claim they aren't socialist. Just because the government "lets" people own companies, the government is still essentially dictating how the companies operate through the heavy regulation. There's not a lot of difference between that and the government outright controlling the companies. It's like a parent who "gives" their teenage child a car but reserves the right to take the car away from them at any time. IOW, the child doesn't really own the car.
– Dunk
10 hours ago
add a comment |
American political taxonomy is a bit different from that of other countries, so it should come as no surprise that you're puzzled.
The primary axis for American political discussion is the degree of power wielded by the central (Federal) government. The (rather ill-defined) central position is shared by Democrats and Republicans, and advancing to the Left the major divisions are: Liberal/Democrat (the two are often interchangeable), Socialist, and Communist. While Europeans have a larger, more nuanced, list of variations, the US 2-party system has pretty well subsumed all of the European distinctions into Liberal/Democrat or Socialist. Within the US, socialism is generally seen as a system which gives enormous power to the central government without the totalitarian flavor of Communism. Consequently, for Bernie to identify himself as socialist simply means that he has advocated a greater role for the Federal government than is currently accepted by the Democratic party. Within the usual usage of the terms, he could have chosen either ultra-liberal or socialist. He picked socialist. Bernie made his political debut as mayor of Burlington, Vt in 1981, and it was at that time that he described himself as socialist, and the term was picked up by the newspapers. Given that these were the Reagan years, this did help to give him a well-defined political identity. To the amazement and relief of the city, he was apparently a good mayor, and did not let ideology get in the way of running the city. The relief was not shared by the Republican and Democratic leaders in Burlington, who were unable to get him out until he chose to run for the House of Representatives.
At about the same time, the US (including Vermont) went through a condominium conversion boom/bust cycle, and the rise of awareness of genital Herpes. This gave rise to the Burlington political joke:
Q - Which one of the following items does not belong on this list?
A) Gonorrhea B) Bernie Sanders C) Herpes D) A condo in St. Albans
A - Gonorrhea. You can get rid of Gonorrhea.
add a comment |
American political taxonomy is a bit different from that of other countries, so it should come as no surprise that you're puzzled.
The primary axis for American political discussion is the degree of power wielded by the central (Federal) government. The (rather ill-defined) central position is shared by Democrats and Republicans, and advancing to the Left the major divisions are: Liberal/Democrat (the two are often interchangeable), Socialist, and Communist. While Europeans have a larger, more nuanced, list of variations, the US 2-party system has pretty well subsumed all of the European distinctions into Liberal/Democrat or Socialist. Within the US, socialism is generally seen as a system which gives enormous power to the central government without the totalitarian flavor of Communism. Consequently, for Bernie to identify himself as socialist simply means that he has advocated a greater role for the Federal government than is currently accepted by the Democratic party. Within the usual usage of the terms, he could have chosen either ultra-liberal or socialist. He picked socialist. Bernie made his political debut as mayor of Burlington, Vt in 1981, and it was at that time that he described himself as socialist, and the term was picked up by the newspapers. Given that these were the Reagan years, this did help to give him a well-defined political identity. To the amazement and relief of the city, he was apparently a good mayor, and did not let ideology get in the way of running the city. The relief was not shared by the Republican and Democratic leaders in Burlington, who were unable to get him out until he chose to run for the House of Representatives.
At about the same time, the US (including Vermont) went through a condominium conversion boom/bust cycle, and the rise of awareness of genital Herpes. This gave rise to the Burlington political joke:
Q - Which one of the following items does not belong on this list?
A) Gonorrhea B) Bernie Sanders C) Herpes D) A condo in St. Albans
A - Gonorrhea. You can get rid of Gonorrhea.
add a comment |
American political taxonomy is a bit different from that of other countries, so it should come as no surprise that you're puzzled.
The primary axis for American political discussion is the degree of power wielded by the central (Federal) government. The (rather ill-defined) central position is shared by Democrats and Republicans, and advancing to the Left the major divisions are: Liberal/Democrat (the two are often interchangeable), Socialist, and Communist. While Europeans have a larger, more nuanced, list of variations, the US 2-party system has pretty well subsumed all of the European distinctions into Liberal/Democrat or Socialist. Within the US, socialism is generally seen as a system which gives enormous power to the central government without the totalitarian flavor of Communism. Consequently, for Bernie to identify himself as socialist simply means that he has advocated a greater role for the Federal government than is currently accepted by the Democratic party. Within the usual usage of the terms, he could have chosen either ultra-liberal or socialist. He picked socialist. Bernie made his political debut as mayor of Burlington, Vt in 1981, and it was at that time that he described himself as socialist, and the term was picked up by the newspapers. Given that these were the Reagan years, this did help to give him a well-defined political identity. To the amazement and relief of the city, he was apparently a good mayor, and did not let ideology get in the way of running the city. The relief was not shared by the Republican and Democratic leaders in Burlington, who were unable to get him out until he chose to run for the House of Representatives.
At about the same time, the US (including Vermont) went through a condominium conversion boom/bust cycle, and the rise of awareness of genital Herpes. This gave rise to the Burlington political joke:
Q - Which one of the following items does not belong on this list?
A) Gonorrhea B) Bernie Sanders C) Herpes D) A condo in St. Albans
A - Gonorrhea. You can get rid of Gonorrhea.
American political taxonomy is a bit different from that of other countries, so it should come as no surprise that you're puzzled.
The primary axis for American political discussion is the degree of power wielded by the central (Federal) government. The (rather ill-defined) central position is shared by Democrats and Republicans, and advancing to the Left the major divisions are: Liberal/Democrat (the two are often interchangeable), Socialist, and Communist. While Europeans have a larger, more nuanced, list of variations, the US 2-party system has pretty well subsumed all of the European distinctions into Liberal/Democrat or Socialist. Within the US, socialism is generally seen as a system which gives enormous power to the central government without the totalitarian flavor of Communism. Consequently, for Bernie to identify himself as socialist simply means that he has advocated a greater role for the Federal government than is currently accepted by the Democratic party. Within the usual usage of the terms, he could have chosen either ultra-liberal or socialist. He picked socialist. Bernie made his political debut as mayor of Burlington, Vt in 1981, and it was at that time that he described himself as socialist, and the term was picked up by the newspapers. Given that these were the Reagan years, this did help to give him a well-defined political identity. To the amazement and relief of the city, he was apparently a good mayor, and did not let ideology get in the way of running the city. The relief was not shared by the Republican and Democratic leaders in Burlington, who were unable to get him out until he chose to run for the House of Representatives.
At about the same time, the US (including Vermont) went through a condominium conversion boom/bust cycle, and the rise of awareness of genital Herpes. This gave rise to the Burlington political joke:
Q - Which one of the following items does not belong on this list?
A) Gonorrhea B) Bernie Sanders C) Herpes D) A condo in St. Albans
A - Gonorrhea. You can get rid of Gonorrhea.
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
WhatRoughBeastWhatRoughBeast
1685
1685
add a comment |
add a comment |
The definition of socialism is
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
Bernie Sanders wants free healthcare and free college, which means it is run by the government. When the government is providing the services of health and education, that is socialism. In the above definition, I assume goods also means "goods and services".
22
Public goods can be provisioned without the government owning the means of production. "Free college" and "free healthcare" proposals typically consist of the government paying for things on behalf of the consumer, not the federal government owning every college and hospital in America.
– Joe
Feb 22 at 18:31
13
I didn't know that most industrialized countries (which provide some form of free healthcare and free education) are socialist countries. Please call Theresa May and tell her that she leads a socialist government. :-)
– Martin Schröder
Feb 22 at 19:52
17
Why is free college socialism and free K-12 school not? Hmm....
– Geobits
Feb 22 at 21:12
4
In the US (or everywhere?) most of the "means of producing" military safety are owned by the government
– Hagen von Eitzen
Feb 22 at 21:44
13
This answer is fallacious. Jazz is defined as music characterized by polyphony, syncopation, and improvization. Beethoven's music contains these elements, therefore Beethoven is a jazz composer. Silly.
– barbecue
Feb 22 at 23:50
|
show 7 more comments
The definition of socialism is
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
Bernie Sanders wants free healthcare and free college, which means it is run by the government. When the government is providing the services of health and education, that is socialism. In the above definition, I assume goods also means "goods and services".
22
Public goods can be provisioned without the government owning the means of production. "Free college" and "free healthcare" proposals typically consist of the government paying for things on behalf of the consumer, not the federal government owning every college and hospital in America.
– Joe
Feb 22 at 18:31
13
I didn't know that most industrialized countries (which provide some form of free healthcare and free education) are socialist countries. Please call Theresa May and tell her that she leads a socialist government. :-)
– Martin Schröder
Feb 22 at 19:52
17
Why is free college socialism and free K-12 school not? Hmm....
– Geobits
Feb 22 at 21:12
4
In the US (or everywhere?) most of the "means of producing" military safety are owned by the government
– Hagen von Eitzen
Feb 22 at 21:44
13
This answer is fallacious. Jazz is defined as music characterized by polyphony, syncopation, and improvization. Beethoven's music contains these elements, therefore Beethoven is a jazz composer. Silly.
– barbecue
Feb 22 at 23:50
|
show 7 more comments
The definition of socialism is
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
Bernie Sanders wants free healthcare and free college, which means it is run by the government. When the government is providing the services of health and education, that is socialism. In the above definition, I assume goods also means "goods and services".
The definition of socialism is
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
Bernie Sanders wants free healthcare and free college, which means it is run by the government. When the government is providing the services of health and education, that is socialism. In the above definition, I assume goods also means "goods and services".
answered Feb 22 at 18:13
ChloeChloe
3,72621640
3,72621640
22
Public goods can be provisioned without the government owning the means of production. "Free college" and "free healthcare" proposals typically consist of the government paying for things on behalf of the consumer, not the federal government owning every college and hospital in America.
– Joe
Feb 22 at 18:31
13
I didn't know that most industrialized countries (which provide some form of free healthcare and free education) are socialist countries. Please call Theresa May and tell her that she leads a socialist government. :-)
– Martin Schröder
Feb 22 at 19:52
17
Why is free college socialism and free K-12 school not? Hmm....
– Geobits
Feb 22 at 21:12
4
In the US (or everywhere?) most of the "means of producing" military safety are owned by the government
– Hagen von Eitzen
Feb 22 at 21:44
13
This answer is fallacious. Jazz is defined as music characterized by polyphony, syncopation, and improvization. Beethoven's music contains these elements, therefore Beethoven is a jazz composer. Silly.
– barbecue
Feb 22 at 23:50
|
show 7 more comments
22
Public goods can be provisioned without the government owning the means of production. "Free college" and "free healthcare" proposals typically consist of the government paying for things on behalf of the consumer, not the federal government owning every college and hospital in America.
– Joe
Feb 22 at 18:31
13
I didn't know that most industrialized countries (which provide some form of free healthcare and free education) are socialist countries. Please call Theresa May and tell her that she leads a socialist government. :-)
– Martin Schröder
Feb 22 at 19:52
17
Why is free college socialism and free K-12 school not? Hmm....
– Geobits
Feb 22 at 21:12
4
In the US (or everywhere?) most of the "means of producing" military safety are owned by the government
– Hagen von Eitzen
Feb 22 at 21:44
13
This answer is fallacious. Jazz is defined as music characterized by polyphony, syncopation, and improvization. Beethoven's music contains these elements, therefore Beethoven is a jazz composer. Silly.
– barbecue
Feb 22 at 23:50
22
22
Public goods can be provisioned without the government owning the means of production. "Free college" and "free healthcare" proposals typically consist of the government paying for things on behalf of the consumer, not the federal government owning every college and hospital in America.
– Joe
Feb 22 at 18:31
Public goods can be provisioned without the government owning the means of production. "Free college" and "free healthcare" proposals typically consist of the government paying for things on behalf of the consumer, not the federal government owning every college and hospital in America.
– Joe
Feb 22 at 18:31
13
13
I didn't know that most industrialized countries (which provide some form of free healthcare and free education) are socialist countries. Please call Theresa May and tell her that she leads a socialist government. :-)
– Martin Schröder
Feb 22 at 19:52
I didn't know that most industrialized countries (which provide some form of free healthcare and free education) are socialist countries. Please call Theresa May and tell her that she leads a socialist government. :-)
– Martin Schröder
Feb 22 at 19:52
17
17
Why is free college socialism and free K-12 school not? Hmm....
– Geobits
Feb 22 at 21:12
Why is free college socialism and free K-12 school not? Hmm....
– Geobits
Feb 22 at 21:12
4
4
In the US (or everywhere?) most of the "means of producing" military safety are owned by the government
– Hagen von Eitzen
Feb 22 at 21:44
In the US (or everywhere?) most of the "means of producing" military safety are owned by the government
– Hagen von Eitzen
Feb 22 at 21:44
13
13
This answer is fallacious. Jazz is defined as music characterized by polyphony, syncopation, and improvization. Beethoven's music contains these elements, therefore Beethoven is a jazz composer. Silly.
– barbecue
Feb 22 at 23:50
This answer is fallacious. Jazz is defined as music characterized by polyphony, syncopation, and improvization. Beethoven's music contains these elements, therefore Beethoven is a jazz composer. Silly.
– barbecue
Feb 22 at 23:50
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protected by Philipp♦ Feb 22 at 18:26
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28
It might be helpful not to force edit an American perspective ("democratic socialism" = "socialism") into OP's question, when the OP is asking from a German point of view, especially when OP makes a distinction between "social democrat" and "'socialist' and 'communist'."
– BurnsBA
Feb 22 at 19:02
8
Perhaps you could explain, for the benefit of Americans and other non-Europeans, exactly how a social democrat differs from a socialist? When I do a search, the first thing that pops up is the dictionary definition: "a supporter or advocate of a socialist system of government achieved by democratic means". So it would seem that social democrats are simply a subset of socialists, no?
– jamesqf
2 days ago
13
@jamesqf Wikipedia definition: "Social democracy [..] supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and a capitalist economy." Early social democrats tried to achieve socialism by working within the system, but they eventually abandoned the goal and accepted market economy.
– Jouni Sirén
2 days ago
5
@Jouni Sirén: Yes, so that makes social democrats a variety of socialist, no? I don't, incidentally, see why a market economy is incompatibe with socialism: it's simply a more efficient method of arranging an economy than Communist-style central planning.
– jamesqf
yesterday
9
@jamesqf In the European usage, socialism is defined by the intent to replace market economy with socialist economy. If someone accepts private ownership of the means of production, they are not socialist in this sense.
– Jouni Sirén
yesterday